Debunking a Woman's Right to Choose in Four Words
One of the most common - and most nonsensical - arguments posed by abortion advocates is;
"My body, my choice."
This meme which I edited to show it's stupidity ought to show why "My body, my choice," is an argument against abortion- not for it.
Fetus, baby, child, teenager, adult or otherwise. These are simply other ways to say "human." And humans ought not to be murdered because of a mistake a different human made.
I'm not disagreeing with your stance, I respect it. However I do have one question.... actually a few questions.
In your view, when is the baby officially a person? and what makes the baby become a person?
I just had to google the definition of person before answering, and I accidentally missed the final letter before I pressed the search button. Google showed me that perso means "lost" in Italian. Given this language was primary given to us by the Romans, I find that very interesting, for we are very fucking lost today.
In truth I think the answer you ask is a very difficult one, and it is that difficulty in ascertaining when a life becomes worthy of the title "human being" that leads me to believe it's a human being from the moment of conception. But I think if we are to be consistent, the allowance of abortions should also support the allowance of killing children up until whatever age they have the mental faculties to say, "I object to this decision," which would typically be over a year after their birth.
Well, I don't think even the most "liberal" of politicians would ever condone such laws and frankly I would pitchfork against it myself.
I guess the reason why I ask the question is because until as a society we can't agree on that definition. On when it becomes a human, people will continue to talk past each other. You see what I mean?
Because we have people who have the religious belief (nothing wrong with that, to each his own) that it happens at the point of conception.
Then we have the pragmatics who believe that it happens when its born.
So its not a black and white foundational understanding, its nuanced, I get it. I'm wondering though if we are ever going to find something even closely resembling common ground.
We already found common ground, my friend. You must simply have overlooked it. We both agree that it's impossible to tell at which point a life becomes too valuable to bring an end to. But if we can agree that this is very difficult to agree on, I do not see then why the default decision we fall back on would be to terminate lives up to x point in the pregnancy. What does that say about society? It seems that if this were a morally inclined society, the inability to establish at what point a human life is worth saving should lead to the obvious moral truth that they're all worth saving.
I understand why abortion is legal from the perspective of the people in power who both profit from it in a monetary sense and by keeping the population low, but from the perspective of a normal citizen, I find it it very difficult to empathize with the position of abortion advocates. Perhaps you can assist me in understanding by giving me your best pro abortion point? I ask because I will have a better ability to argue my cause to pro abortionists in future if I better understand the reasons why they believe it ought to be acceptable. Typically I just here really illogical excuses that seem to be spawning from a place of guilt. You on the other hand seem very sound of mine and have entered this conversation with your emotions under control, so I think you're the perfect candidate to hash this out with.
I don't have a pro abortion statement per say. In my opinion anyone that can break it down with a positive spin is doing moral contortionism at best. However, I'm also aware of what happens when we deem things ilegal.
In south america, (where my father lives) abortion is ilegal. Does it still happen? All the freaking time, as a matter of fact, its possibly even worse down there because of the clandestine nature of it.
Meaning, newer generations get pumped with the idea of "sex is wrong, so says God" and they simply hide the sexuality aspect of life.
Then they discover it, and indulge, but in complete ignorance.
I actually had someone tell me once, you will think I'm making this up, but its 100% accurate.
"all you gotta do, is make sure she takes 2 aspirings and drinks a whole coke before you do it... she can't get pregnant like that"
That's funny, but its not supposed to be.
So, to me... and this is my opinion, the fact that is morally wrong, or unethical and having a conversation from that platform might not be as productive as the establishment of systems that educate the young to make better, healthier choices.
Will this eliminate abortions? possibly not, but I'm convinced it would reduce them if less people think the aspirin thing works.
That being said, I also don't have the political artistry to come up with a way to both allow choice and prevent abuse (which happens). That requires a brain that is not currently in circulation, or a whole different species all together.
Let's get into this from the perspective of consciousness in beings. You know you are conscious. I know I am conscious. But is a baby that hasn't even developed in the womb conscious?
It's the subtle difference between animated machines and humans. By animated machines, I include all the AI that are emerging nowadays. Even though they might be animated, or they may portray consciousness, are they really conscious? The answer is no. They are designed to look conscious and this difference can be smelled from a mile away. We have all used Alexa, Siri, and Cortana to do our bidding time and again, and don't think twice before shutting them off or even erasing or deleting them simply because they aren't conscious of themselves and don't have the human desire to live.
A similar argument which I'd like to make is about machines. They are simply animated with responses designed in them. They don't have a will of their own. Similar to how a baby inside the womb is more of a machine which develops from the splitting of cells. That goes on until the time that it can actually be conscious of it's being sometime during the seventh, eighth and ninth months of pregnancy. It doesn't grow a brain strong enough to comprehend its own existence until then. It just has a basic function designed to keep the body which has been built to stay "alive" in a sense. This function is more about animation than it is about consciousness and serves as a preparation period for the brain to start fully functioning in, or for the child to be truly alive. Until then, it has no sense of its own existence. It's just repetitively doing what its DNA tells it to do. It is essentially a machine. You wouldn't think twice about destroying a machine. Why not a cellular one?
Your argument of allowing abortions until they are worthy of cognition is certainly a strong one. After all, you don't boil an egg and say that you're eating a chick even though you are devouring the unborn. You don't compare it abortion because it can't comprehend anything it.
But when it comes to a legal perspective, which is more or less what this question is about, being pro-life is stripping people of their rights. It is their wish to take responsibility for a child, or even give birth to one. And it isn't hampering anyone's life because of the aforementioned reasons. It still hasn't exactly found life yet. The child is their responsibility, and they can choose to deny it.
Going off topic here, an ID Card is called "Personalausweiß" in Germany. It is usually shortened to "Perso" in day to day language.
Which is funny now that I have learned about this bit of the italian language. If someone manages to lose his ID Card, calling it a "Perso" now feels more fitting than ever to me.
I am against future trauma. The end.
What i really hate about the abortion argument is that all sides are not being honest. And what i really hate about the abortion issue is that "pro choice" is the only honest conclusion.
The life of the child actually begins before conception. But, the souls know full well there is free choice and that abortions may occur (miscarriages may occur) and help is put in place during this tenuous time.
Miscarriages and abortions still affect the soul. And there are children today who remember the trauma. As in, they were supposed to be born four years earlier but they remember being flushed. How is that for mother-child bond?
Further, abortions shouldn't be necessary. Women have a dozen forms of birth control, including the morning after pill. The only reason a woman gets pregnant is because she is an idiot, stupid, or for nefarious reasons.
Many "unwanted" pregnancies happen so that the woman can have leverage over a guy. Trying to tie down the man. And when, he doesn't put a ring on it, after the blackmail, she goes and gets an abortion.
You have yet to explain why you believe pro-choice is the only honest answer. I am honest with myself - I believe, and yet I have arrived at a different opinion.
Many pregnancies also happen when we "forget" to pull out. The guilt cannot be laid at women's feet alone. Even if most rather than many pregnancies occurred the way you stated, that would still be as much the fault of males as females, because if we know this to be a possibility before having sex, then we shouldn't have sex. The problem I believe is that no one is being educated on the true impact of having a child. I do not refer either to the parent's inability to go clubbing as often. I mean that when you bring a life into this world, that life is accompanied by a whole lot of suffering and or joy. You bring a life that is going to need help to survive for all its years now that we're dependent on a system to eat.
We need to teach people that giving birth is a very, very serious thing rather than a way to get some free money from the government.
I think you are a forward thinker in many regards but every time the discussion involves women you forget that you're a human and remember only that you're a man and not a woman. The whole point of the LGBTQ post I just wrote that you commented on was to make the suggestion that we stop dividing ourselves, and that ought to apply to men and women too. It is not them and us; it is simply us. The only "they" or "them" I know are the one's who have led us here, and that's just a handful of people.
I would say men are stupid... they believe the woman when she says, "I am on the pill"... and then they believe her when she says, "whoops, i guess the pill wasn't working and i got preggers." This is a very common story, and it is always a situation where the woman wants to get married, but the guy isn't going for it.
The stories are so legion that i believe it defines the rule and not the exception.
Add to that: 1 in 4 children are not the stated father's. This comes from a blood technician in a hospital. That is 1 in 4 based solely on blood types of the parents.
So, to men, i say, you are being stupid. You are being played.
But, i lay the deception at the feet of the women.
Now, about "pro-choice". Women will, and have, do anything and everything if they do not want the child. Over the years, all kinds of chemicals and toxins have been used.
A well outside a nunnery... they cleaned it out and found tons of infant skeletons.
Given that not allowing legal abortion only ends up with illegal abortions, then it is stupid to deny legal abortions. The women are in charge of their body, and they will do as they please. With or without consent.
And, although i feel it is bad for the woman, the child (the soul) and humanity to have abortions, i can only express my disdain for the practice. Women have to be allowed to make that choice on their own
There is still a lot I can't agree with in here but I will concede that you have brought me to the realisation that I am both pro-choice and antiabortion.
I have felt like there should be no law, and that is because I think no one should be told what they can and cannot do. I just hadn't put my own beliefs together properly in regards to the context of this topic.
So I thank you for the clarity you have given me. Yes we should be able to choose. But that choice should always be to save a life where possible, not to extinguish it because we are afraid of the responsibility.
That is basically where i stand.
(i am probably just a lot more cynical when i hear "oops")
So, your main problem is that women can use this as a leverage to get what they want from men, and then do what they want. It is about the imbalance of legal power which befalls men and helps women. Is that correct?
Not quite, but those are ramifications of it.
Women are, by nature, emotionally manipulative. It is the way they think, it is what they do.
So, i am pointing out that the actual reason that women demand abortion rights (and that everyone should stay out of it) is because they are using abortions to get out of the emotional manipulation gone wrong.
And, that if we do not address this large reason, calling a spade a spade, then we can't ever work out the discussion over abortion.
While it is true that women are inherently more manipulative in nature, the point is that a castle being attacked doesn't ask the attacker to stop. Neither does it appeal to a higher power to keep the enemy at bay.
Your defence is in your own hands. Being, a martial artist, that's the first thing which I learned in life. If you want to remain safe, it's your job to prepare for safety and ensure it. If a guy is that concerned about whether his woman is going to use emotional manipulation on him through pregnancy, he should just use a condom. That's what they're meant to do. Furthermore, if a person can't trust their sex with another person, then what meaning is there to their relationship. If I was in his shoes, I'd get the fuck out of there.
In fact, that is exactly what I did. An ex of mine told me that she was pregnant after we had sex. I insisted on getting her medically examined and when I found out that she was lying, I confronted her. She told me that she wanted me to be closer to her. I did not like the manipulation one bit, and that is where I ended it.
But the fact is, that also taught me something about women. I now realise it after living with another woman for the past two years, that if a woman is comfortable around you, she won't have to find the need to manipulate you or lie to you. She'd say everything without feeling like she's risking something. That's something which most men and women need to learn and understand. Apart from that, if a guy is with someone who is just exploiting him, it is bound to surface sooner or later. That's when he should take the cue and move on.
Curbing the right to abortion would make it punishing for the women you talk about. But, at the same time, it doesn't really help solve anything. The issues behind these problems will still continue to exist, and soon, there will be another way to exploit the loopholes in the law.
Yep, this is why i say, "i have to be pro choice." Because women will find a way, no matter what. So, give them the right and give them the responsibility.
I agree, that if a women gets preggers to manipulate a man, that relationship is doomed. Run away. Run silent. Run deep.
On this we are not in full agreement. ^_^
Then again I used to scare pro-lifers and pro-choicers aren't exactly buddies with me either.
Turns out a recent debate brought me to the realisation that I am pro choice, for I am essentially pro choice for everything and against forced rule of law. But at the same time, I hope that we would decide on our own not to end a life so easily.
Well... there is a third stance... :c)