It has come to my attention that I need to explain things a little more...and this is better!
Some people do no understand words to describe a concept, as well as they do pictures...
....not really come to my attention , to be honest - I was already well aware of it - and the two different types of visualization.
(it's been long understood, nothing new), but I couldn't think of a better introduction to the post...
So in that vein, I'll broach the the ethical concepts that I described in a previous post, with some pictures, and hopefully illustrate my concerns with the fundamental flaws - as I see it - in the Steem ecosystem.
A and B...These are both valid concepts.
B, as far as I can see, is the concept applicable to the way the steem ecosystem works.
%20-%20Copy%20-%20Copy%20-%20Copy.jpg)
So far so good, and pretty clear to understand....The Steem produced is put into the rewards pool, and belongs to no one
Let's move on..
All steem swimming in the this reward pool are the same size. = 1 steem.
%20-%20Copy%20-%20Copy%20-%20Copy.jpg)
....and now it gets tricky, if you are applying ethics into to the steem ecosystem.
If the steem belongs to know one, then everyone is free to grab what they can.
How you choose to grab it, is of no ones concern, but your own. (no ethical reference).
If the steem are still in the rewards pool, there is no ethical dilemma with taking steem out of another net, while it is still in the rewards pool. (the 7 days pay out, and down voting)
This is philosophically consistent, and offers no moral or ethical dilemma, if there is no ethical reference and the 'code is law').
There is zero ethical dilemma.
There is almost no relationship to content creation and the share of the rewards pool.(stake size, being the main factor)
%20-%20Copy%20-%20Copy%20-%20Copy.jpg)
^This^ is logically consistent .
It is also psychopaths economic model....
In the world of humans, ethics constrain negative human behavior. (thou shalt not kill).
In the Steemit ecosytem - having no ethics built into the code, only encourages negative human behaviors.
(flagging wars, or people having keys to an account and thus becomes ownership - irrelevant of any previous contract...)
More of a ....'Thou shalt kill if you want to, because you're bigger'.
I hope this explains one part of my personal ethical dilemma with Steem. There's more...
If I see this ethical dilemma, then so do others - those looking at steem from the outside - and this poses a problem for steem, in my opinion....
Why?
Because throughout all of history, the most successful and productive communities and societies - embrace ethical behavior, and shun non ethical behavior.
'Code is law' here, and non ethical behaviors encouraged, due to the lack of ethics in the code - but at the same time , people in societies naturally turn away from such behaviors.
It will appeal to the sociopaths, and psychopaths, where 'might is right', and all ethical codes have no relevance to them.
The question that has to be asked...Will, or even - CAN - the Steem economic system, attract and retain those users not of the 15% of society (the sociopaths, narcissist and psychopaths?).
Does this explain anything about steemit to date, maybe?
The non ethical system that we have now on Steem is, 100%, logically consistent.
(It's also logically consistent to kill every human being not producing more for 'the collective' than they consume, right?).
What kind of world do we want..?
....and here is the real fuck up....
You cannot have a technocratic system ( non ethical one), and at the same time, a free market and meritocratic based system, not living within the same worlds..
Steem is not meritocratic or free market.
Why not?
A free market fundamentally insists on property being freely exchanged for goods or services.
It relies on the concept of property rights..
But we have already established that we are trading with something that is not ours....
Steem in the rewards pool belongs to no one, remember?
This is not logically consistent.
The free market???
....It is not this, ergo - it's not a meritocratic one , as meritocracy itself relies on free market principles of property rights - to function.
Ok, the serious shit over with..
I'm off back to my 'D-Day' story.
(and arguably way more serious than this post - as we might all find out about, in the next 80 something, days.)
I think this is a pretty clever summation. I wonder how making the rewards pool private property would change the distribution? If the witnesses would forgo their rewards (instead of keeping them) then how would witnesses choose to distribute them? Or is that not your point, and how they choose to distribute them or not, is simply the "free market?" Idk, this seems like a toughy. ;)
Oh, the pretty pictures do help by the way! lol
MMMmmmmm......I dunno....I DO know without property being the consideration when writing code - it will not stand .... (no concept property, no ethics).
Correct me if I still don't understand completely. Most crypto projects tout the fact that they are open source, meaning those who are capable and willing, can contribute and see how exactly the source code works. NEO/BTC etc....Closed source (private property) are your Microsoft's/Apple/IBM's.
When writing code with the intention of making it private, you become no longer "open source". Is this what you mean?
It might be...if I understood what you meant..lol
I mean that the rewards pool as it stands, is no ones property - therefore taking it - however you can - is acceptable.
Without an ethical code in the system (code) there are no ethics.
There can be no theft, or deception, or cheating....these are ethics.
IF the reward pool belongs to no one -(which I think is correct) then any actions becomes acceptable - to take a slice, there is no 'right, wrong, good bad' - just whatever you can get, however you can get it...
Law of the jungle is not a structure that will endure - except as a financial instrument to make profit of price action.
In the 'new world' structure - this is an incorrect model - this is exactly what we are all railing against...Non ethical structures.
I think it's a very fine line. Not that it's not worth examining. Just seems difficult to unwind it all. I don't necessarily think that making the reward pool privately distributed makes it "closed source" anyway.
I' not saying we don't leave it as it is - I'm saying we have to understand what it is we are dealing with.
....it'll only end in tears if we don't..lol
...the free market concept is wrong. You need to own things to buy and sell.
This is more akin to a land grab or gold rush (every day)
Still makes me wonder how the witnesses "pay their bills" in a model like this. Unless they just up-vote their own content and comments constantly. I've never really considered what the economic model on Steemit is. I'd say it's about time! Thx for the running start ;)
Me neither.... until I did my 'refresher thinking' for those few days when I was offline.
the steem reward pool belongs to no one. (until 7 days later)
People use the rewards pool for various actions prior to distribution.
People use property that is not theirs, to profit.
A 7 day cycle gold rush, and not a function of free markets.
(Free markets = a free exchange of your property, for good or services. Steem is not this - in regards to the rewards pool).
Hey @lucylin.
I'm agreeing with what you've said here. I think this is about the clearest I've seen it stated (even without the pictures :). And obviously many others have bandied the topic about in some fashion.
What I got out of this, without putting words in your mouth, is STEEM needs to move away from an ownerless reward pool system to where people use what they own to upvote posts, etc. And that if they did, that would, I would imagine, at least slow people down on the negative behavior. I also got out of this that since code is law, there needs to be some ethics baked into the code so that it's not just might makes right, or Wild West whichever version we're on.
If those aren't the conclusions I should be drawing, please let me know.
Thanks matey!
Yup that pretty much what I was getting at...
It suits the ethically minded.... but doesn't suit the transhuman/ technocratic/ authoritarian/egocentrically, minded..
...of which their seems to quite a few, and very possibly correlated to, coders, (imo)
I found myself from nearly day one wondering about how things were around here, and how happy many were that it was this way, while railing at certain aspects of it nonetheless. In other words, let it be wild west, but my version of wild west.
I guess the next step is, what/whose ethics gets used (something that most would agree on), and then what's the chance of actually getting it implemented. For me, I think most of us are aware it exists, even for at least some of the ones it suits. So, awareness isn't the issue. Proper action is. Any chance of that happening within the next few months or so in your estimation?
no.
Ethics based on Universal Preferable Behavior. Objective ethics used for millennia (in the guise of religion ect).
Thou shalt not kill/ steal, blah blah - the big proviso to implement UPB ethical guidelines - is that it all centers around the basic principle of property rights - as it shown not be present in steem...
Hence my view that the ecosystem is fundamentally flawed..
I just read this, not tried it but I hope it works https://steemit.com/busy/@klye/re-whatsup-if-i-don-t-respond-to-your-comments-20190313t075035851z
You know what worked for me again and again during my flagwars from Bernie and fryrstiken? Mocking their efforts by likening getting hidden because of flags to having a mystery spell on, and oddly enough, that is exactly what flagging does, it mystified my words and intrigued people to reveal them, and in turn people rewarded me, probably more than if I wouldn't have been flagged.
Posted using Partiko Android
There are no property rights being violated. There is no consent being violated. Hence why you must relate this on your "view" and not on clear logic founded in facts and objective reality. In other words, what objective ethics used for millenia are violated here?
Lol ethics baked into code doesn't suit the authoritarian, when ethics are now a matter of law/ code.
Muh logic with this one.
Posted using Partiko Android
"ethics baked into code"
Spoken like a true authoritarian.
Posted using Partiko Android
Hey, @baah.
You answered @lucylin with a similar response, so I'll be interested to see what the answer is. In my case, I guess I'm more interested in knowing if you see the concerns expressed here as major issues, and if so, what should be done about them.
Just as an aside, code seems to always be considered non-ethical in nature. It is what it is. So maybe a bad choice of words, but it seemed to fit what was being driven at.
Because a gun or a law isn't ethical, only acts are ethical. Enforcing a law becomes an ethical position, but a law is no more ethical or unethical, it's only words after all. Code, applications, aren't ethical.
He literary went from "it's not fair that better equipment nets more fish" to "thou shall kill because you're bigger" without missing a beat and no one has said anything.
He, like you, claims that without hard coded ethics this place is inherently encouraging unethical behavior (despite never explaining what behavior is unethical) and claiming that hard coded ethics are against authoritarians as if laws, oaths of office or anything like that has not been tried by millennia and been demonstrated not any better than the people who enforce laws, just so on here, nobody will be stopped from acting unscrupulous simply because there's a code preventing it, as if law has ever prevented theft and murder.
It's so ridiculous that were I to ask you or him, exactly what is the ethical issue, all you can do is talk about how it's not fair (equity, not morality).
Posted using Partiko Android
Hey, @baah.
Okay. So in agreeing with him that there are fundamental flaws to the system, I guess I'm also being lumped into what his solution might be, even though, really, I was trying to understand what his solution was by stating, or restating what I thought it was and then asking if such was the case.
For the record, I don't think I really know how to solve the issues he brings up (which I guess have yet to be clearly defined), mostly because there really isn't a one size fits all solution that enough people are going to like, and for precisely the same reasons you state: just because a law exists, doesn't mean the words, and I would add, even with some enforcement, will stop what it's meant to stop, or cause what it's meant to help to actually happen.
I figured out a long time ago that you really can't legislate morality. It doesn't work for religion, and it doesn't work for governments. The people are either willing to behave certain ways, or they're not. Laws might deter some because they don't want to suffer the consequences, but there are many who that doesn't seem to be that big of an issue.
And if they do decide to change their behavior, it's more apt to be other influences and circumstances than it is the law and the consequences of them. Laws can be changed, and whether they're enforced or not can be changed, too.
So, yes, actions do speak louder than words, and ethically, what you do is more important than just words.
In reality, I think there's already hard coded ethics, and they are already allowing/permitting/encouraging certain behaviors. The absence of law (which isn't entirely true here) is still a moral code, and instead of specifying what may or may not be allowed, it's saying everything is just fine unless enough people with enough power can stop it and desire to do so.
My main interest here was to concur with lucylin about identifying what I believe to be problems—whether we want to use the words ethical, moral or something else to describe them—and instead of just keep talking about them, come up with ways to solve them that can be agreeable for as many people as possible.
Unfortunately, I don't think there is one answer. That's evident in this conversation we're having. Mainly because we don't seem to be at a point of agreeing on whether or not problems exist, which was the question I asked you, and then what to do about them if there are problems.
The first thing is what is the ethical, moral or wrong conduct that both you and him seem to understand?
If there's no ethical issue, what is the issue?
I asked him in his previous post, after pointing out that he seemingly had no ethical dilemma but an obvious equitable dilemma, what would be the solution. He said that he had no interest in discussing that.
Go read through the thread and see for yourself. He has never been an intellectual in my view, despite his nauseating attempts to indicate otherwise, and like other people have pointed out in that thread, he had a equitable issue. He never responded to that, as he never responded to my comments.
What is the fundamental flaw with the system? You seem convinced that we don't agree about problems as if you, him, or anyone else actually defined a problem, or made sense from head to tail as to what the problem was. How can we disagree over something that I haven't made any position of?
Posted using Partiko Android
You keep mentioning 'equitable' and 'fairness', when I never do.
it makes you look disingenuous and stoopid.
Conflation is not pretty when people see it for what it is.
Your lack of ability to understand what an ethic is , and how property rights are fundamentally essential to enact ethics, only reminds me the depth of your mental illness and your post modernistic delusions.
You can get better, John, just work at at..
I wasn't the only one that pointed out all you have is an issue of fairness. BTW, if it's not mentioned, what is the graphic of the fisherman about...
Posted using Partiko Android
My understanding is not the issue here, your understanding is. You never pointed out exactly what is the ethical problem. Who's property rights are violated?
Posted using Partiko Android
https:// steemit.com/@lucylin/a-life-of-ethics-and-steemit-lets-get-fundamental-philosophy-part-5
The first comment to my comment.
Posted using Partiko Android
You make it seem as if you cannot write a whole library on one thing without explicitly naming the thing itself. You made numerous indications that all you have is an issue of fairness, yet you seem to think that because you never explicitly said you had an issue of fairness that means you weren't talking about what is unfair.
You seem to have absolutely no problem with "looking stupid", as I pointed out above, and as I mentioned previously in your initial thread about this topic of "ethics and steem", you don't have to mention it once, that doesn't mean you did not talk directly about it.
Posted using Partiko Android
Looks like this conversation has been moving along without it me. :)
Well, the one fundamental flaw I understood was being written about and that I was agreeing with is that we don't really own what we use to upvote people with. It comes from the communal reward pool, and even with that, we only allocate what we control based on our vests. It's not like me going to the store and purchasing bread with money from my wallet. It's more like an unlimited expense account that is throttled down based on my vests.
How I see that as fundamentally flawed is that we're suppose to be trying to build up STEEM, but really, the only actual use of it is in things like bidbots, maybe purchasing STEEM Monster cards or the like and investing. The actual use of STEEM isn't available for creators and curators, unless, apparently, when the price is so bad, we get liquid STEEM depending on what SBD is doing.
I suppose I could just keep my STEEM liquid and spend time transferring amounts directly to people's wallets. Fairly time consuming, though, because it's not really how the upvoting system is designed.
Those of us involved in the creation of things aren't really trafficking in STEEM, which seems odd to me, since the social media platform is the largest and still the main draw, but funny how STEEM Monsters, Drugwars, Magic Dice, and maybe others actually do.
I'm not speaking for lucylin here. These are things I'm thinking about when I read what he wrote.
The ethical part comes in with what people do with the system. Is it ethical or moral to flag people just because you can, or to remove reward funds simply because they're in the crossfire? Is it ethical, as lucylin pointed out, to take away someone's account because they happened to do something wrong with their password? Since the code allows it, by code alone, the answers would be yes, but most of us don't live like that.
Sure, until payout, nothing belongs to us (which I believe another issue lucylin had), and yes, people can flag, but since there's nothing governing or preventing anyone from misuse, abuse, etc. (in fact, none of that is even clearly defined), they're pretty much free to do what they want, even if it hurts others. I suppose we could argue over whether or not anyone is hurt if what they don't own is flagged away, but based on most people's reactions, I would say that many would say that it's at least wrong to do when it's either flagging to flag, or flagging when the beef is with someone else or something else entirely.
I'm not convinced of anything as far as you're concerned. I was trying to provide uncertainty with my choice of words. I still don't know if you see any problems or not, other than I don't seem to be precise enough in what I'm saying. :)
Oh, and I don't know who's an intellectual or not. I don't think of myself as one, but I do like to think about things, question them, and figure things out.
Isn't it ironic that this posts begins by talking about how people don’t understand words, so more or less on a premise of their lack of ability, and you and others swiftly agreed to what otherwise is undefined, unexplained, and despite the pictures, has no indication of ethics, and here you are suggesting that neither ethical or moral is specific enough to describe the problem you and others agreed to.
I said that if I were to ask you or him what exactly is the ethical issue, it would only be a matter of equity/equality/fairness, which is exactly the only indication one can take from this nonsensical post, where he illustrates how a net catches more fish.
Despite the "this is logically consistent" rhetoric, the other irony is that nobody bated an eye when he went from talking about fishing, to talking about killing. All that logical consistency, only to state some utter nonsense, and it worked, who was the wiser to recognize the false preface?
Posted using Partiko Android
I was talking about pure logic, not fishing or killing.
Are you really that intellectually dim?
I don't think you are, which just makes you disingenuous
I would say manipulative, buy while you might think you are clever - you are no where close to being good at manipulation. ( I was born into a family of experts of the fuckers).
Remember how I reeled you in as exercise in manipulation? - I told you i was gonna do it, before I did it - and then you fell for anyway?? lolol
....how old are you, btw? I thinking you must be under 20?
I wasn't talking about fishing but how you went from an analogy focused on competition to the strongest get away with murder.
Posted using Partiko Android
What's the analogy about? Huh? You had an analogy about the reward pool being akin to fishing in the ocean (nobody owns either and best equipment usually nets most fish) to talking about might is right- I can kill you because I'm stronger. What is manipulative about pointing out that without missing a beat you basically prefaced an non sequitur with a logical consistent argument, and then went to conclude that the non sequitur is somehow true or applicable. The irony of calling me manipulative.
Posted using Partiko Android
I asked you numerous times who's property rights are violated or who's consent is violated and all you want to do is ask me an non sequitur about my age while calling me mentally ill because I questioned your claim about banking, now you call me manipulative. The hypocrisy is strong with you.
Posted using Partiko Android
Seems you're still angry at your family, don't take it out on me.
Posted using Partiko Android
You literally went from talking about fairness, equitable, as the analogy was about competition between two typical fishermen (ergo fairness) to talking about killing one another without anything to tie the former into the later. You denied again and again that you never talked about fairness even though in your initial post regarding this topic you mentioned that "2000 words don't make as much as 5" and that "steem is not a meritocracy (wholly concerned with Fairness) to talking about how it's not free market (more fairness). You are so lost in the sauce that it's beyond funny, it's sad, pathetic actually.
Posted using Partiko Android
if ethics are not used, fine - that's what we have now, but not lets pretend it's free market .
Authoritarianism has nothing to do with with.
(hows your understanding of the banking system coming along?)
Dictating ethics through code is the definition of authoritarianism.
Posted using Partiko Android
It it's not free market, what is it?
Posted using Partiko Android
if ethics are not used, fine - that's what we have now, but not lets pretend it's free market .
Authoritarianism has nothing to do with with.
(hows your understanding of the banking system coming along?)
Which banking system?
Posted using Partiko Android
I believe the ethical code lies within the hearts of the Steemians.
It's hard to speculate if the current system would work for a billion users compared to the mere thousands today.
Posted using Partiko Android
"thou shall kill if you want to because you're bigger"?
We went from:
No ethical dilemma at all- catching fish (and a whaa whaa it's not fair that better equipment/more SP nets more fish)
To all of a sudden stating that someone is killing another.
You went from talking about fishing to talking about seemingly fishermen killing one another without missing a beat.
And you go to say that now there is an ethical dilemma because steem does not code ethics.
Ethics are actions, not codes.
Saying that because ethics aren't coded is saying that because logic isn't coded nonsense is encouraged.
Statist much?
Posted using Partiko Android
Both the pictures are flawed.
The reward pool is not provided or produced by the witnesses. I explained this before.
They are workers that are compensated for validating blocks. The reward pool is produced by a mathematical function of shares x inflation / vests.
There is no ethical dilemma. For it to be a matter of ethics, it must be a matter of consent or property rights being violated.
The witnesses don't own the blocks. They validate blocks that the system compiles and sends to witnesses to validate.
Even if it worked like you claimed, it would still be completely ethical as no property rights or consent is violated. You are in a fair Vs unfair dilemma. You think it's not fair that content doesn't guarantee fish. If you want fish, you must invest, and even then it's not guaranteed that you'll catch fish or as many as you want.
This post has been included in the latest edition of SoS Daily News - a digest of all the latest news on the Steem blockchain.