UBI - For or Against?
I would like to say that I am a simple man but let's be honest here... Sometimes the way I behave can only be termed as simplistic. So here are my naive thoughts on UBI.
It appears that the need for a universal basic income or UBI is not only apparent but also immediate in many parts of the world. On the other hand the very idea that people should be paid ‘just because’ has become a hotly contested debate for last several years. In fact countries like Finland have already applied this model on a restricted scale and tested the waters for UBI. The results of such experiments have been interesting, to say the least.
Those who oppose the UBI mostly do so for a multitude of reasons. One such reason is – with ‘free’ money that is guaranteed to support people for life, they would lose the motivation to work. Without motivation the productivity of the society would plummet and not to mention that the lives of people might actually become less satisfying. Others say that the financial resources of the world will not be able to bear the load of paying each and every human being on Earth without an equivalent return (in form of work or services from an individual).
…….. These are all regular arguments that are used to oppose the idea of UBI.
Although I do think the all these arguments hold some merit, but I also believe that they are too short-sighted. These arguments assume that people work just to earn enough money to get by. The problem with this is that mankind by nature is inescapably greedy. Unlike the popular belief, greed can actually be quite the motivator. Humans fulfil their needs but it is their deepest desires that they actually pursue relentlessly. Do you think that I am being a hedonist? Not quite.
My own reasons for not being pro UBI are much more simple. I just think that people need to earn their place in society. Earning an income is part of that journey or rather one of the first steps of that journey. Through that our pursuits have the potential to be converted from hedonism to dignified and positive human actions.
I will also add that I find a certain merit in the idea of UBI being implemented in interim periods – Such as a crisis or a place that has no work due the off-season unemployment, etc.
In the end I will add that debates can quickly deteriorate to squabbles if we do not conduct them with discipline and an understanding of human nature. The good guys will keep fighting the good fight but it is important to remember that all of them might not have the same goals in mind.
PS: I have applied for some UBI crypto token airdrops before, so you can just overlook the hypocrisy ;-)
This is where I always start struggling. Because what is 'their' place in society is defined by our very narrow ideas of what is valuable. Most cultures value motherhood greatly, yet we don't pay them, so 'their' value is gigantic, and yet 'their place in and impact on society' doesn't even let give them the means to pay for basic needs.
Also, no-one wants to live without art, or we wouldn't be able to listen to music or watch any movie on Netflix, yet we don't pay artists. To me what someone can achieve within society is only in part based on how hard a person works or how many personal sacrifices they make. It's mostly predetermined by what society is used to pay money for and so you're either born with skills that will be paid once you develop them, or you're not.
Often those who get the biggest 'rewards' also are the ones who worked hard in the past but can now see those rewards come in passively. That's fine, as they worked hard, took risks, were smart, but I don't often see how I can justify their income versus that of one who has to literally scoop shit of the streets everyday.
The most interesting experiment I once read about was the one where garbageman quit working for 7 days, and where bankers did as well. You know which were begged to return to work: Right, the garbageman, since they prevent stench, take care of hygiene, and rats were taking over the city in no-time. Bankers were simply replaced by bar men... They wrote on napkins how much was owed to whom and no-one asked the bankers to come back. Now, how do we not pay garbagemen a wage at least equal to bankers?
I honestly don't get it.
For me a UBI, or just a Basic Income for those with lower incomes, would simply make up for our universal bias towards which things we value and which things we actually are willing to pay for.
(I'm almost afraid to publish this because I've gotten TONS of shit on Steem before for any kind of 'leftist' opinions I have, but well, such is life. I'm totally biased because I live in a leftist country that has the highest happiness rates amongst both children and adults in the world. It's not a coincidence young thinkers like this are coming from 'here' and are starting to get the word out:
Let me say this first - @soyrosa this comment made my writing the above post totally worthwhile. I like you even more now :-)
This is something that nobody will get from me....EVER! So chill and know that there is at least one person who adores this honest comment :-)..... and I am pretty sure that I am not the only one who appreciates these genuine words.
Perhaps I should have said that everybody needs to find what they love. The only problem with that would have been that it might not be able to put food on their table. That is part of the reason that my tone is a bit stiff/preachy in that sentence, because there is no one way writing it that would express the weight of my thoughts on it.
I would say that not every person may be able get the 'best of both the worlds', but at least we can try to make sure that they don't have to struggle every single day. UBI maybe one way to do it but I strongly believe that it would only be a temporary solution.
Obviously an argument could be made that temporary is better than no solution. I come from a land that is brimming with humans...... billions....... so many that I have seen animals getting better care than many humans do and keep seeing it daily. India is a weird place, it can make you cry and then smile in the next moment.
We have government subsidies and support systems that help people stay afloat.... its not exactly UBI but probably two steps removed from it. This system has failed us for more than a century now. People might be surviving but nothing beyond it. In that sense I find that its better to claw my way to a space where I can breathe rather than stay where I have to wait for one gulp of air to the next.
There is no doubt that UBI can help one type of economic zone, but how does it help a country where if even our whole GDP is distributed amongst us, itwon't allow a person to even buy an average flat in a small town. Perhaps in these words my experiences and what I have seen is reflecting more than I want to. Its just that for me empowerment has become more about being able to 'kick my way out of it' and learning how to do it. On the other hand I also understand that empowerment can also be about just being able to handle yourself.......
This doesn't mean that I am too far gone to see the other side but just that I can only make a decision based on the database at my disposal.
For me the question not as much about UBI itself but rather - 'where would it come from?' This post is just an exercise in trying to put my side of the debate from an angle other than my own.
I know, that's why I felt 'safe' to share my views here, I know you appreciate the exchanging of thoughts more than the agreement of others with your views :-)
We come from very different countries and we'd probably learn most if we could live a year in each others country. At least, that's how I tend to learn to appreciate different sides, I need to see it, listen to people's stories, try to get under their skin - I know my views are not shared by many and I try to learn why.
We have many 'layers' of social security in our country as well, but somehow here they work (more or less, there's always a few people falling through the cracks... They end up with huge profiles in our papers in order to tell our government that they still don't do enough :')) and on your side of the world they don't. Why? What's that 'third variable' that we are not able to identify yet?
Yes, I understand. The very very very basic answer, I believe, is there's a lot of money going into systems that keep people from getting 'too much' free money but these systems cost money themselves. A UBI could simply be attached to your social security number and almost no other paperwork will be needed, severely cutting in bureaucracy.
There's an experiment I believe done in the UK where they gave homeless people 3000 Pounds 'no strings attached'. It costs thousands to keep homeless people 'alive' and 'cared for' and 'not hanging in unwanted places'. You know what happened after they checked on these people a year later? 11 out of 13 of these men had found a home, had literally been able to get off the streets with that 'free money'. From that point on the state got a huge discount, because these people cost way more money living on the street.
Just trains of thought. It's an interesting subject, and again, I believe crypto can play a huge role in it. Especially in countries where a few dollars a day makes a significant difference.
Thank you for the trust! I am so glad that we have this understanding :-)
As I was watching the video I was just surprised that the fact poverty makes you take bad decisions and in essence make you 'less bright' (perhaps like being drunk) was a such a revelation.
I have been lucky to have never known the fate that some of my friends do ....... a part of my childhood was spent wondering why did he do something so stupid and face such irreversible consequences. I guess I reached this conclusion by myself before I was even twenty and I found that a lot of my other friends agreed to it.
We have saying which goes like 'poverty is a test'. The word test here is light translation because it can also translated into something akin to a 'curse'. It's like we all understand what poverty can to your mind and soul.
Apart from other reasons, I will also admit that a part of me is unable to believe that we can reach a solution so easily......
The idea of UBI is not new to me. Being from an academic background I have seen a few numbers for myself....... On the other hand a part of me has always treated it as fairy tale rather than a possible solution..... who know :-)
Meeting and chatting 'live' was very enjoyable and definitely built this trust <3
Yes, the poverty thing is really interesting, as we often assume (or even observe!) a link between lower IQ and lower income... But what if the worries actually take away some 'IQ points', that changes the perspective quite a bit right?
I work with some people from lower socio-economic background and I just see it happen. They have no money (so they think) to fix their car so they avoid bringing it to the garage but by delaying it they have to spend a lot of money on public transport or delivery costs of stuff... So with a different decision they could've fixed the card and started 'saving' money again, getting out of their predicament earlier.
It's just one simple example, but yes, these people I would gladly see receive some form of UBI - and if that's temporary because like in my example with the homeless people from then on they start building their own life... What an amazing world we would live in <3
We'll see :-) I hope we'll still chat in 10 years time and discuss this again with some new data and observations we collected :D
Thanks to the blockchain, this discussion will still be their ten years after ... to remind us of old times and my naive views :-)
Interesting debate! I have not heard of UBI. But I agree with you, @hashcash. People need to earn their place in the world. It is important for self-esteem and supports what I feel should be a driving force in a healthy society: that everyone must earn their keep and contribute to productivity, to the best of their ability. The face is, we are not equal in that regard. Some cannot di for themselves, and some will choose not to even if they can. I think one system for all would break down pretty quickly.
Thanks for reading @jayna!
I won't say that we have a perfect case but yes I do feel that maybe more difference can be made without UBI being permanent solution. Although its important to understand the current UBI models are not about giving 'full time free money', In fact many models are just proposing that they would be able to provide a portion of what you need and thus lessen the burden on your back. I just don't think it is a sustainable idea.
Let's also not forget that UBI is not the only option that can give us 'sustainable' economic empowerment and the subsequent freedom from fear of just being able to exist. Some say that existential freedom doesn't allows us think at a higher level. On the other hand some of the most genius level events have happened because we were pushed beyond our limits (I am not arguing that we should stay in a constant fear of being wiped out so that we may progress, but I am trying to present a smaller yet a factual issue under the umbrella of this debate)
I am also worried about what happens if this system aborts halfway and the market forces warp beyond our understanding in that period. How does the recovery happens and how do we deal with a populace that has lost some of it's competitive instincts.
PS: I hope you also read some points made by @soyrosa in the comments section.
I OK with UBI in future, although not really thought about it in great detail.
I take my weekly tokens at Swiftdemand, and was thinking i need to do an update post on it soon.
https://www.swiftdemand.com/?referred_by=asher
Just knock off the ?referred_by=asher if you don't fancy giving me a few tokens :)
I know what you are doing :-) but I'll go and say done and done!
LOL! the stink of my own hypocrisy is nudging me to delete this article but I have a thick skin ;-)
😂👍🏽
Well let's face it, money for nothing seems like a long way off. But at the same time, If there is any hope, might as well 'explore options' 😁
That's my creed bro!
Hi, @hashcash!
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Great engaging conversations here, great to see you back! I probably don’t know enough about it but when I compare it to the welfare system I have not only lived but seen, I often think how much work and effort is unmotivating as many don’t want to work as they are better off with welfare (I have had employee resign die to the risk of losing these benefits). I believe that the structure of the program and its execution is where most get it wrong. It should be a complementary program that rises and falls or adjusts according to minimum needs and that way you do not lose while you progress financially. I would even say that bonuses should be provided if you do get a job to replace the subsidized help. Just thoughts though...
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Perhaps this is the part that is not being talked about in general discussion on UBI (like this one). Good point man and thanks for dropping by!
PS: thoughts are all we have for now :-)