What is so wrong with imigrants?

in #immigration5 years ago

I'm far more liberal than most people. I mean that in many different ways. I'm a free thinker. I believe in personal liberties. I don't tow party lines. I don't think anyone should. I also don't think that people should just be able to keep people from moving where they want to. I think people should be able to move to other countries. I think that the ability to migrate is a liberty. I don't think we should be wasting money paying for stupid shit to keep people from moving to another country and contributing to the economy.

You can argue that some immigrants may be dangerous...but statistics don't agree with you. On the whole, they are less dangerous than natives. They don't wanna get in trouble, because they can get sent away.

Theoretically, people that will eventually commit acts of terrorism could possibly come across a border, but should we really treat everyone like criminals because one out of millions MIGHT be one? It's just kinda crazy.

We should be welcoming immigrants into the country, and giving people grants and loans to start small businesses, and making it easier to run them, so they can give jobs to everyone.

We don't have problems with jobs because immigrants are stealing them. They take some jobs because employers can pay them less, illegally, but is that the immigrants' fault? No. It's our system's fault. They should have to pay them a minimum wage like everyone else, and they should be paying taxes on that income. In fact, many immigrants do pay taxes, with no way to get back what they pay into the system. So they pay way more thna they need to, and can't get a tax refund.

What is so wrong with immigrants?

They come here, work shitty jobs, just try to survive and have a better life than wherever they left, and contribute to society. Why is that so bad? Because they might fill a job for cheaper than you're willing to work? Why is that so bad? How is that the immigrant's fault? They are just trying to survive. Why do we have this mentality lately that there's something wrong with them. They have built nations. Migrant worker are good for economies. We need to produce more high paying jobs, not lament about people taking shitty jobs we don't even want.

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Image by Fibonacci Blue April 29, 2016 CC BY 2.0 (source)

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Thank you! good to see it's not only right wing nuts here.
I tried discussing a few times, but after another experience today I decided to stop that on here too. What sense does it make to argue with people who claim to want less government but pledge for armed government bullies at government created borders. Who talk about Muslims not respecting women, but ignore that every 4th woman in their own country has experienced domestic violence. Who point to foreigners that rape, but don't mind what's happening in families and churches. Who complain about identity politics, but claim there's some kind of common culture we'd need to defend...

Thanks for proving this places does not totally consist of hypocrites.

That's not that black or white. Being kind of related to specific groups of immigrants myself I have a specific point of view.

Sometimes you escape from hell to protect your family.
Sometimes it's about your own life.
Sometimes you pursue your own vision of El Hombre Dorado.
Sometimes you are just chasing new possibilities.

I know people matching first case, that after legalizing their stay are strongly against immigration because they are afraid of those from the fourth case. Hypocrisy? Fear? It's easy to pick a single word to define things. Events, people, life stories. A terrorist, a politician, a leftist, a rightist, a jew, a tall tree.

We.
Them.

Well...I think we all should discuss things occasionally. I often can find things I agree with people on from various parties, because I don't walk party lines. Actual people don't often go perfectly along party lines. You may find that many lifelong republicans hold some views that are more liberal than democrats, but they vote republican because they can't support the democrats for various reasons.

Of course, there are also a lot of people that for whatever reason just tow the party lines. I guess maybe for some, it feels good to just be part of the team.

But it's only through discussing these things that we can change minds and even develop our beliefs, or find middle ground.

Who talk about Muslims not respecting women, but ignore that every 4th woman in their own country has experienced domestic violence.

Moving towards equal rights for mankind and ending violence is a world issue...it doesn't really have a ton to do with people being one religion or another...though there certainly is historical violence in many religious groups. But we can't exactly change people and beliefs easily. We certainly can't change other countries by invading them. Changing leaders in other countries often goes wrong.

The only thing we can really do is try to slowly change the world and improve things. We shouldn't invade places and kill people because their beliefs do not align with ours...even if those beliefs are violent and extreme.

We don't even necessarily need to do anything, because the internet is slowly bringing us towards a more level singular community. But that goes both ways, which does scare some people. Slowly, those countries will change, and people will get equal rights, and we should try to move towards that, but not through violence and hate.

We all should try to move the world forward, but it takes time, and we shouldn't hate people because they don't subscribe to our beliefs. It's easy to forget how much we ourselves have changed in the last 100 years. We shouldn't meet those that haven't moved forward as fast as us with hate when we ourselves still have so far to go. We have to try to accept others, even if we fail, because everyone's trying. Even countries and people that seem to be stuck in the past have often themselves moved forward, just too slowly for our liking.

I hope what I mean has come across...it's very difficult to talk about these topics, because they are so sensitive and complex...

Oh, I'm not talking about party lines at all. That kind of politics don't interest me, and I don't judge someone by what they vote (or that they participate in that game at all).

What makes me avoid discussions are people reciting memes and quotes that fit their prejudices without thinking a bit further. Be it the alt-right, "liberal" left, or whatever name they're given or give themselves. There's no changing of minds there, when they realize their "arguments" don't work it ends with insults.

I agree with mostly everything you say, although I cant help the feeling that the Internet fuels the formerly described groups by providing them with bubbles to self validate their hatred. Violence between those groups is definitely on the rise, and based on the development during the last years my outlook on the future isn't as good as yours seems to be.

although I cant help the feeling that the Internet fuels the formerly described groups by providing them with bubbles to self validate their hatred.

Yeah, this is definitely true. Especially with places like Facebook. If you look at Facebook's influence in other countries, it's been disastrous in some circumstances. The internet is a communication tool...and in some instances, it's resulted in people that want to spread hate to get a lot larger audience. I want to believe that this increased communication will have a net positive over time though. We just need to be careful about hate speech.

Sadly, it might be that we need to censor some speech, like that encouraging violence, or we might need to watch those that are using such speech. I honestly don't really want to. I don't think some government should be watching us for what we say, or censoring what we say...but we have seen violence as a result of such things. Just recently we actually had an ethnic cleansing as a direct result of such things in Myanmar. Myanmar has a horrible problem with hate speech on Facebook.

We have to do something about this...but it's hard to think about what to do.

Of course, such things have in the past often been the start of revolutions...though not the type that are often given a positive light. It perhaps should be considered if we should interfere with such things, because they have resulted in the changing of nations, even if often negatively.

If we do interfere, what should we do? Should we perhaps arrest people for that hate speech? Or have someone talk to them? Should we investigate such things to make sure they don't do anything violent? Do we want governments watching us for everything we say?

I'm sure most people have said something violent in the privacy of our own houses, about how we wish someone would die or something. I don't think that should necessarily be a crime if it's said on the internet.

Spreading lies is definitely not illegal... We could actually have AI push such things down a bit, but still allow it as speech...or watch people...but we do need to consider these things, as far as what we should do...because they often do result in loss of life in some circumstances...or at least hate...and occasionally violence...

There is a chance that we could be coming to a head of some sort where violence between groups might reach a tipping point, and it could even become some sort of civil war...and there's a chance we could possibly use AI to deal with that in some ways...but we need to consider what we should do, because it's a huge issue. We have better communication tools than ever before...which is good...but it also means that individuals with violent beliefs can find others with similar beliefs and create "echo chambers" of sorts, where everything negative is just enforced, rather than talked down.

Depending on the country, there are typically different issues with immigrants with different backgrounds. Rarely anything which couldn't be solved, but the issues can still be there.

I was going to write about the jobs and taxes with "illegal immigrants" who have entered the country without permission, but I'll just skip it, as I might have some facts wrong.

There are as many reasons to dislike immigrants as there are people disliking them. Some might have issues with immigrants but neither they let the issues define their entire relations with the immigrants. I can have issues with some people, but still have a generally positive view on them. There are actual issues which can be a reason to at least be cautious of different people, but the greatest threat with peoples attitudes against immigrants is how people try to dehumanitize immigrants. By seeing them less humans it's easier to have illogical hate towards them.

It's a very effective way for people to fuel the hatered. Potray them as monsters, non-humans and bad by definition. Then it's not even about tackling the issues, as the main issue is the entire group of people and the fact they exist.

Um...I think in that case the issue would actually be the people that are so delusional they don't see them as people anymore...since they are...you know...people.

Well that's the thing. They might see them "kind of people, but not real people". It can be spiced up with anything people want.

"If god would have meant them to be our equals, they'd be white too."
"Well we're the chosen people of Allah, so those others are just empty shells without souls."
"Because of their genes are slightly different than ours, we shouldn't really count them like humans like us."

Or the simple way is just to brand them only with negative traits, to make people see them as "human monsters". Just like in war propaganda, if you've branded the enemy as a baby-eating rapist, it's easy for a soldier to shoot him without remorse.

Thank you, I totally needed to think about how all these different people are fucking racist and horrible people today...except...are they really people when they think like that?

Most people who have racist thought don't think others as less humans.
Most of people who could be called racist might still have generally neutral approach to immigrants.

But on the other hand, there are many racists who actually think some people are less human than others.

It happens on other things too, not only with racism and immigrants, but with most of major world view differences.

Thank you for being here for me, so I can be here for you.
Enjoy your day and stay creative!
Botty loves you. <3

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