Volatile Topics Over Dinner?

in #life5 years ago

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Here we were about 12 people sitting in contentment having just eaten a delicious Thanksgiving dinner. It’s unusually cold at 11 degrees outside and we are sitting in the warm glow of candles, laughter, wine and very full bellies.

A woman (let's call her Xx) begins telling a story sort of laughing in disbelief as she tells. One night recently at 11:30PM she slowed down but not to a full stop and rolls though a stop sign at a deserted intersection. Moments later a cop is behind her with flashing lights and she is pulled over and given a ticket for $175.

She is a single mother struggling to hold her life together even in the most basic ways so this ticket is no small hit for her. Her boyfriend is a lawyer and tells her to claim “not guilty” on the ticket and that he will take care of it. He shows up at the appointed court date and before their appointed time, tells the prosecutor that the policeman hit on her and that this ticket was given because she refused him. The ticket is dismissed.

When I hear this story, I’m so torn. Like everyone else at the table I was taken with the telling of it and wanted to be on Xx’s side. Firstly I feel the injustice of what this policeman did and feel angry on her behalf. Granted, police need to do due diligence and pulling her over and giving her a warning or even a $40 ticket makes good sense but a ticket for $175 was unnecessary and maybe even a misuse of power. In light of this I feel glad that he didn’t get away with this, police should be helping people not penalizing unnecessarily nor for profit, right?

But then I think about Xx’s lawyer boyfriend’s choice to lie about the policeman hitting on Xx in order to get her relieved of this ticket.

The impact and repercussions of this run through my mind - could this ruin his career in some way? Yes he is should be reprimanded for what he did, but not what he didn't do. And I worry about the women who have actually been hit on and been the victims of sexual harassment and the larger impact of women being believed about sexual abuse, intimidation and rape. So often women aren’t believed with devastating results.

Lying about issues of sexual abuse is also a misuse of power I worry that it can undermine everyone else who is telling the truth. When a woman - or a man in this case - lies about this it can add fuel to the undervaluing and dismissal of what comes from a woman.

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This is a very small example of a much larger issue and according to one man present at that meal who I spoke with the next day, it was just not a big deal and that he hadn't given it another thought. It was one injustice for another. Maybe he is right, but I wonder, where is the line in abuse of power, how large does it have to be before it's worth mentioning?

I also consider that no one at the table said anything. Did anyone feel easy about it or like me did they feel uncomfortable? Did they feel that it wasn’t worth bringing up for fear of offending?

In the moment I couldn’t think of a way to speak up gracefully and without the potential of my words shaming Xx or disrupting the dinner party so I didn’t, but in truth this kind of situation makes me wish I knew how to. I would have liked to hear how everyone else felt when hearing this story. Maybe it’s benign enough to have sparked a conversation of substance where both men and women can share and be heard about a taboo and difficult topic?

I crave conversations about hot topics that I care deeply about but I am not always sure how to do it without destroying an evening. Life makes more sense to me when I feel permission to discuss such topics one-to-one and in a group.

I hope to learn and become better at navigating this and instigating discussions where varying points of view can be heard and explored because I believe that I’m not the only one starved for meaningful discourse on the mishegoss of life these days!

Love to hear your point of view on both the misuses of power and whether it’s possible to discuss hot topics gracefully at a dinner party? What does reading this bring up for you? Have you ever been in a disaster of a conversation or a particularly successful one and what made it so?

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It's so odd as I thought I had commented on this post. I think I must have read it and had a good think and somehow in my head, I made a comment. Part of the problem of a solitary introvert: Too comfortable having entire conversations with oneself and just moving on :)

It can be odd when uncomfortable things come up at dinner parties. I think it is all about just gauging the audience. It can usually be guessed at who would be open to discussing and not just creating an 'argument'.

I often find most people today have one view and opinion and they don't want to change it and aren't open to new ideas, in that case, it can often be wasted breath and unnecessary uncomfortable ways. That might just be my WASP ways of not expressing too much about opinions at dinner.

I'm not even sure where I stand on the metoo movement. I often feel like there is a LOT of grey in the world but we really live in a black and white variety due to our internet lives. we are meant to have easily digestible views and opinions that can be tweeted and hashtagged and so often there is very little subtlety. I also see a lot of public stone throwing that is not unlike our medieval ancestors in the town square. I'm not sure if we are moving backwards in our treatment to one another or we are simply the same and this is just its new guise.

Hi Donna! this made me burst out laughing!

Part of the problem of a solitary introvert: Too comfortable having entire conversations with oneself and just moving on :)

Thanks for your comment, regardless of timing. I agree that one needs to read the room and if it won't lead to discussion with open minds, it's probably not worth it. I've asked several people about this, it became sort of a research project and funnily enough even in addressing the subject of how to discuss difficult issues at a dinner 1 person specifically was so deeply offended that I even consider such a thing that he was immediately in argument mode and verbally attacked me. I still can't quite believe that we're all so explosive and unwilling to just talk to each other these days. We don't have to agree, but disagreement can occur respectfully!! After all, we're all human and the so called difficult issues are actually the most important existential issues of our time. I crave the discourse of a classroom I guess where it's enjoyable to throw ideas around and add to our existing thinking.

Ouch, I can feel the discomfort. It sucks that she had to pay a fine and be in financial distress... But to do injustice to another person is simply 'an eye for an eye' and that's not how I believe these things should work.

I don't know how this normally goes in the US, but here a fine is pre-defined, so it's a fixed price for a fixed rule-breaking. Stop signs are there for a reason, and there's no excuse as 'it was quiet on the street' or 'I was really looking out'.

She should have stopped, that's the rule, and she broke it. She 'deserved' the fine, the only way I would feel injustice is done is if the standard fine is 40$ and somehow she got 175$. This is not possible 'here' but again, if that's what happened I understand she wanted to 'fight' this.

But then the fight should have been about that, getting a quadruple fine for a relatively innocent situation - and the 'system' should have figured out ifs he was right or not.

Now there's a person who simply did his job walking around with a stain on his name for something he didn't do. Again: he didn't hit on her, she did ignore a stop sign. She didn't get any punishment, but he might have.

It's easy to be writing this, but this would have been a difficult thing to say at a dinner table where you somehow always feel like 'it has to be fun', right? You don't want to be spoiling a perfectly pleasant mood when you've prepared food and/or haven't seen each other for a while. I have no solution for this either, except for maybe asking a simple question that at least makes the other person think, instead of sharing your own opinion immediately. A question like '...how do you think your accusation will impact this persons life/career'? might get the other person thinking, at least, and hopefully think a bit harder next time they feel they are treated wrong.

Yes you are correct that a rule is a rule and a fine is a fine. But here whether a ticket or a warning is given is left to the discretion of the police officer and very often they give warnings if you have a clean record. But I do agree with all you've said here.

I think she should have went in like I have done in the past and given my side of the story. She might have gotten off or had it reduced without having BF blatantly lie. I mean talk about reinforcing negative connotations of lawyers all being dishonest.

I agree with you and in fact have always had fines reduced even by simply writing in a letter explaining what happened or why I made a the mistake even if I'm guilty. And yes, so true!

I understand your conflicted feeling. I don't think I would say anything on the dinner table because I don't want to be the one who disturb the joyful mood. I think this is one of those occasions when there is no best solution, except if the situation didn't occur at all in the first place of course.

Yeah, that's how I felt! But I had a conversation with another person who was at that dinner earlier today and he said that the good joyful vibe was over after no one spoke up since i think it made everyone uncomfortable! I hadn't really realized it but he's right so next time (armed with some good suggestions given to me here in these comments) I might gently give it a try! Thanks for your comment @scrawly.

It's always good to speak our minds, and I'm sure if you bring it up, you will do it in the most polite and convivial manner. You are right, maybe we care too much about not disturbing harmony to the extent that we don't speak up when we need to.

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Eek... That's tough. Two wrongs do not make a right-- to truly win a case, morally, is to seek to be as blameless as humanly possible. I, passionately, believe in the art of conversation and don't mind challenging a guest - gently, playfully - to reconsider their point of view. This is the Socratic method - and our minds and hearts are expanded when we must think/feel more deeply through what we believe is correct or just. As an ex-Nietzschean and Wildean, too, I know that a little provocation and confrontation, even, is necessary in a healthy exchange -- the trick, of course, is to do so with kindness and humor.

Being an immigrant and Muslim, in Trump's America, you can imagine some of the tight tight spots I've been in (even at family dinners). I make it a personal challenge (on behalf of those without a voice) to present biased individuals with an alternative perspective. It doesn't always work, but it's worth a try... :)

I imagine that you have lots of insight with this sort of situation given that you clearly enjoy words and ideas and I can easily see you in conversations that lead to discovery and true discussion. And because - as you say- are an immigrant and Muslim in 2018 in a Trump led America, whew! I can't imagine what you've had to face. Would like to be a fly on the walls of your experiences! Humor and charm are key, but a forgiving heart are as well. Being quick to react can be a hazard and I have to be careful of this.

Yes, a forgiving heart is key... recognizing that when others mis speak or misbehave, they do not know what they say/do. If they knew, otherwise, they'd live & do better. I believe, stubbornly, that people are innately good and need only to be gently reminded of their better selves to rise to the occasion. Sweet dreams, friend <3

You're inspiring me to again believe this! I used to and have become more cynical but as I read this, I know that this is a MUCH better perspective and am truly going to switch my beliefs, thank you!

We can never give up on others because it is, in a lesser form, akin to giving up on life... Those of us who have been blessed to glimpse the mysterious and indestructible beauty of this life and Beyond are not permitted to despair (at least, not for long ;) Rise up, Nature of Being, we've still much more work ahead :) <3

yes!! well said :-))

Oh wow! I totally felt the same discomfort you did. At the end of the day the cop sounded like an ass, a 'jobsworth' we call them in England, people who feel they have to stick to the letter of the law no matter what, and never display any autonomous thought.

However it does make me uncomfortable anytime anybody lies about sexual harrasment or racism. Because like you say, it trivialises it when it does happen.

Also it reinforces negative stereotypes about women using their sexuality in a negative way, or minorities playing the 'race card'.

It's a tough one, and you were at a friendly dinner party. Next time in a similar situation, say something along the lines of '...and how did that make you feel?'

Or, 'I would have felt really uncomfortable if somebody did that on my behalf, especially if they didn't consult me first.'

Chances are, she probably felt really uncomfortable about it as well, hence the nervous laughter. She was probably wondering if this was a thing that people did, that she wasn't aware of. Or if it was out of order.

I doubt if the cop lost his job, let's face it, cops can shoot people in cold blood and still pick up their pension. I hope he never found out, because then that is putting negative vibes in his head about women he may stop in the future.

One thing your story does do though, it reinforces stereotypes about lawyers! 🙄

Cg

Good suggestion @cryptogee to ask her "and how did that make you feel" because I agree that in telling her story she was needing something. She is an immigrant from China and probably wanted validation that either this is ok or that this dishonesty isn't ok! Your insight just really helped illuminate/validate this for me, thank you.

Unfortunately you are probably right about the cop but I too hope he doesn't learn if/why she was let off.

This would be a tough topic to determine how to respond to appropriately in a dinner party atmosphere. Cryptogee's idea of "How did that make you feel?" is brilliant.

I've had a few of these kinds of moments in person and on social media in the past few years, usually centered around US politics --- discrimination, immigration, and environmental policies specifically (although there are more). The current political climate has emboldened people to voice opinions that would have otherwise been deemed inappropriate and kept under wraps, pre-Trump.

Up until a few months ago I would express my opinions more freely but have taken the stance of not wanting to expend energy trying to convince anyone else of my point of view when they aren't open minded enough to listen. Some of the rhetoric I hear in public these days is unbelievably hate/fear-filled, antiquated, and stirs up major deja-vu. The US is so incredibly divided now, it reminds me in some ways of the decades leading up to the Civil War.

I agree, @cryptogee's suggestion is a very good one and I imagine it can have an opening impact on a potentially divisive situation.

I too have witnessed so many tricky interactions and disagreements in person and in cyberspace and they always throw me for a loop. It's a miracle when civil discourse can happen but so essential! We need to connect as humans more than ever and so many of us are silenced in the face of the spite that's out there.

One on one we have a better chance of connecting and hearing each other but it's a mine field. It frightens me when I know no one is speaking when everyone is uncomfortable, as you 've said this is dejavu from very scary times in history.

Thanks for your comment and insights, good to know we are all in it together!

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