They banned burqa in Denmark and I'm in a moral dilemma

in #politics6 years ago

I am having a burqa discussion with some friends following the recent ban in Denmark and I feel I’m the one being a d*ck for once. So I guess I’m here to ask what would be your arguments?

Personally, I am supportive of the ban for 2 main classical reasons:

  • How can we know it’s their will to wear it as they cannot engage in any discussion? Accepting it means we accept a culture of impunity for people forcing their families to adopt the behavior they see fit for them. Women in hijab can and do speak constantly, participating at every stage of society. But we cannot understand women wearing the burqa as they are restricted to talk to men. This sounds supra patriarchal, but I don’t know any lady who had a discussion with one of them neither.
  • Even if it was their free will to wear it and to not talk to half of the society, as leftist as I am, it is rather normal than Europe doesn't want people refusing to engage in society, to work with everyone, to talk with everyone, in the name of their religion, to live on the continent and refusing to contribute to our society. We are secular countries, but some common sense always prevails.

So we have two choices, either we engage in long-term education, either we take coercive measures.

And the reason I think coercion works, is because the whole debate we are currently having in Europe, Iran already had it, a century ago (Yes, Persians always do it better!).

  • As some of you might or not know, is that Reza Shah, during his reign, forbad the veil and the chador (burqa and niqab are not used at all in Iran). He was Muslim, he even named his son Mohammed, and yet he forced upon the majority of the population, muslim as well, to stop interpreting the religion in a fundamental way. So the obvious problem arose: how did women wearing the chador or veil reacted? They either had to stay at home, either go outside and adapt to the new rules, the trick ended up being wearing a hat. Some stayed at home, some went out.

  • Then came the son (the American puppet), Mohammed Reza, who said that everyone should be free to wear what they want. Resulted in women wearing the veil and chador again, but LESS than how it was decades before, as a direct result of his father’s coercive decision. Indeed, women started adapting and didn’t wish to wear the chador again, or they were afraid of the societal pressure to now wear it when they weren’t before.

  • Then came the Ayatollah. A bit of drama here, we all know what’s the story since. A few days ago I was speaking with my teenage cousin, she is a believer but by no means a religious. She wears her scarf really loosely and her prayer habits are rather inexistent. So you would think she would throw that scarf away the second the government decides to abolish the Islamic laws, right? Yet she wouldn’t, not until the society stops wearing it, she’s afraid of what the others might think in the streets. Which is EXACTLY what happened during Mohammed Reza after his father’s decisions.

Reza Shah and the Ayatollah offered us in a century both absolute opposite of Islamic laws and on the veil. Both showed us that coercion works and will have an impact on their aftermath.

And this is my point. It might be sad that we have come to the point of coercion in our societies, but I believe it is needed. NOT as the current strategy, which solely targets muslim women as they are the most obvious. There are European Jews and Christians forcing their wives and kid to submission and to live their lives the way the family sees it fit. And this is as unacceptable as women forced to wear the burqa. Not less. The obvious problem: how do we see what happens in closed doors?

So here, I am stuck in a moral dilemma, and can’t stop thinking: should we or shouldn’t we ban the burqa/niqab? Again, I absolutely respect the hijab as women wearing it are strong women not afraid of showing what they have to say. They participate and integrate themselves in society. It’s their choice, and we fully respect it. But by definition, women in burqa can’t, even if they chose this life by their own, talk about it. And here is the whole point: the impossibility of talking/understanding each other.

I am obviously talking about the dignity and free aspect of the burqa ban, not anything to do with open anti-Muslim or stupid terrorist preventions policies as most of the governments gave in order to galvanize the crowds of racist/anti-immigration living here.

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I wouldn't feel bad about it. Something like a low 10% to 20% actually are the ones forcing them to wear it or they are shamed/beaten/stoned/whatever(depending on the country). While 80% to 90% of muslims might not care about if someone wears a burqa we must remember it is the minority enforcing it, and the majority going along with it(think SJWs in the USA forcing everything to be PC and majority used to go along with it).

Same as how in the USA something like less than 10% of people owned any slaves, but if you came across a runaway slave you HAD to turn them in to nearest police/army/blah so that the slave can be rightfully returned. More than half of the country hated slavery at the point of having slaves.

Same thing we see with SJWs, they are a minority who happens to have all of the MSM/Democrat support giving them a bigger bully pulpit and platform to use their tactics. Minorities can gain control of institutions and become very powerful.

Hitler did something similar in that he only had a few thousand loyal people to start with helping him with everything. Then after years of attacking enemy politicians and being violent he got his way because nobody dealt with him properly.

The Amish in the USA are all forced to wear a dress code or become social outcasts and are ostracized.

Muslims in the USA also do the same thing, and so do some other religions. Though not too much of this exists anymore in the typical Christianity that we see today, because the left attacked it and over time wore it all down and changed it. Today we see half of mariages ending in divorce, hook up culture is becoming the norm, porn is the norm, people running to legalize pedophilia(check our @krnel latest post on that).

The world is turning insane because of nobody keeping their bullshit in check.

Ultimately the government in my opinion, should only ban the burqa if it is being forced upon people to wear, which from all that I have read and seen it is forced on them. It isn't religious freedom for a religion to force people to do something.

Ultimately I would like to see the government not involved in stuff like this though. But hundreds of years of letting Islam have it's way we see it spreading even more and more people becoming enslaved. So unless we are going to get a private volunteer force together to fight against them in the streets and protest against Islam, it won't change. The left isn't interested in doing that, and the right usually isn't interested in doing that because they are too foolish, and they allow cancer to spread instead of stopping it(because they leave others alone).

Tough delemia, and you bring up some good considerations in your argument. I think you are very aware of the message this law sends, and the implications it means for parties involved. You bring up a good point that we don't know if women are forced to wear it, but we are certain if this law takes effect, that choice is taken away. It is a lot to think about and I can relate to thinking a certain way ideologically, and a situation likes this come up and your felling is against what you think. Personally I don't think they should be banned, but there isn't one right or perfect choice here. Sometimes that's politics, each choice is a little messy, but you evidently understand what's at stake and have good, rational arguments for both choices. So whatever you chose, don't feel guilty.

.... and I feel I’m the one being a d*ck for once.

Only once?- you lucky bastard!
😂😂

Without social/religious expectations of an insular community, how many women would choose to wear the burqa?

Not many, I would poisit - for purely practical, and comfort reasons.

I am obviously talking about the dignity and free aspect of the burqa ban, not anything to do with open anti-Muslim

I understand what you are saying, but the burqa represents so much more than an item of clothing, - so much so that to not see the subject in a wider perspective, is not really discussing the issue (ban or not).

The expression of the religion through the wearing of the burqa, does show a patriarchal system, which means it also makes it political.
Politics and religion within the Islamic faith are intertwined.

Western cultures pretty much separate religion and politics as 'a package', so the ban isn't the just the burqa - it's symbolic of the western fight against Islam as a doctrine usurping the western systems.
It's symbolic of the western fight against real oppressive patriarchy.

Fundamentally, my principles are one of freedom, and anyone be totally free to wear what they want.
But these are from 'normal times'.

Apologies for straying into areas you didn't want to include, but I feel its impossible not to if you are trying to build a full picture...

If you want force used to make you do things OK. If you don't want force used to make you do things. Than not cool. Sadly it is hijab today. What smaller group will it be tomorrow. To me this is slavery in disguise. To me the choice is either have liberty and freedom or be a slave.

Curated for #informationwar (by @truthforce)

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