Steem: The Bulls vs. The Bears

in #steem6 years ago (edited)

I asked a question a few days ago about whether STEEM would hit $16 or $0.16 next. What wasn't a surprise is that everyone thought $16 would be hit before $0.16, mainly because most felt hitting $0.16 would be catastrophic and no one was ready to throw in the towel. So eventually as more improvements happen, like smart tokens and technology improvements like the main interface coming out of beta, most think the upward price momentum over the first 2 years will continue.

I decided to write an analysis for both sides of the argument. The reason for doing so is to point out the factors involved that both the bulls and bears should consider. I am not claiming to be a crypto price expert, especially not on steem. This post isn't meant to be technical argument for or against crypto, it is merely meant to bring up potential issues that people may not be aware of.

The Bull View

The main reason to own steem is the technology behind it. It is far superior to many other cryptocurrencies out there and is widely praised for its speed and the amount of transactions it can successfully handle. With the addition of smart tokens, there is tremendous excitement as these will be integrated and really enhance the utility of steem as a base platform.

Steemit is an application built on top of the steem infrastructure. The people here know what it is, so I won't waste time going over that, but I would like to say there are both positives and negatives as it relates to steemit. The positives are that it has a large installed base of users that is now 2 years old, and there is a good ecosystem of support mechanisms built already which enable a deeper social network experience. These range from curation boosting entities like @curie, community support groups like @familyprotection, to the bot aggregation site @steembottracker from @yabapmatt.

Another positive of steemit is that it is still new, and more development is happening all the time. The primary user login is actually still in beta, which means that there are still enhanced features being worked on all the time (have you checked out @sugarsteem yet from @theuxyeti?). Also, there are other developers that are building programs using the steem blockchain, and as these networks roll out they will add to future steem demand.

The Valuation Is $850 Million

The total market capitalization of steem at the moment is $853 million. When considering whether the price is going higher or lower it is always a good idea to consider how cheap or expensive the company is trading. A market cap should be viewed as the sum of money you would need to buy every share and own 100% of it. In this case it would cost you $853 million at these prices. Whether that is cheap or expensive would be relative to what you are going to measure it against.

Are We Entering The 4th Phase?

steem price chart 2.JPG

This is the entire 2 year history of steem trading. I have outlined the simplified trading pattern that we have witnessed so far. This is a consolidation phase (yellow block) followed by a sharp upward "rip higher" (red arrow). In each of the first 3 phases there was an easy pattern to spot. If this trend holds true in the future, then we are in the 4th phase that will be marked by the consolidation phase (in yellow), which when finished should be followed by the 4th "rip higher" spike to take the steem price to new highs. The whole pattern should look like stair steps that walk higher and higher. If you look at the magnitude of the 1st and 3rd spikes, you will see they both shot up many multiples from the base price. So if the price finishes consolidating in the 4th phase and rips higher again, it would be very possible to see the price shoot to the $16 valuation.

The Bear View

To make the bear view, I will point out some of the main factors that could cause the price to plunge back to where it was the summer of last year $0.16. The main reason why the valuation could drop that low is the overall cryptocurrency market itself. In other words steem might be one of the best blockchains out there, but if the cryptocurrency market implodes, then steem is most likely to go with it. This is a macroeconomic factor that is out of the control of the average investor. In other words, right now crypto's are "hot", this time next next year they may be "not". There are many factors that can affect this, but the bottom line is that everything is relative in the short term; and if bitcoin were to plunge below $1000, then you can be confident that steem will probably suffer some outflow too.

While I am not advocating this drop is likely to happen, what I will do is point out some of the things that could make it happen. The first possible way is that there could be an outright plunge in credit on a worldwide basis. This would lead to the money aggregates dropping and act as a deflating impulse to all asset classes. (think depression). This would be the opposite of what we have experienced over the last 30 years, as central bankers around the globe have not only had loose monetary policy, but they have downright printed money through quantitative easing. Sadly only they know when they are going to tighten the money spigot, but when they do all assets will suffer by varying degrees.

The second possible way is by a government crackdown on cryptocurrencies either by outright banning their use, or almost as bad, by them taking control over them and taxing them. In a world that is as controlled as the one we live in today, it is certainly a consideration. If crypto currencies continue their stellar path forward and take hold in every day life, it would mean an end to the petro-dollar as we know it. That would lead to the money creation/destruction being taken out of the hands of the central bankers of the world, and something tells me they aren't going to give away that power without a fight of some kind. Wars have been started to get this power, my guess is this is a bigger consideration than many bulls want to contemplate.

The third possible way is by steemit itself self-destructing, and taking steem down with it (at least for awhile). We all know the growing pains that all new platforms go through, and steemit is no exception. I don't need to list the issues that people have here, because frankly the readers of this post can't really do much about them anyways. But the large holders and management can, and steemit as a product is like any other business. Management must manage the business and provide a product/service that will keep its users coming back for more.

User Churn

One of the simplest ways to measure how good the management of a business is doing is to pay attention to what their user's "do" (as opposed to what they say). If customers continue to use the product/service in ever increasing numbers, then management must be doing something right. If the number of active users starts to decline, then management should take a look at the product/service and make some adjustments to improve the experience.

To have a successful business model you need to focus on two functions, getting new customers and keeping existing customers. All businesses will lose a certain part of their customer base over time as various factors impact people, moving, health, family needs, etc... The bottom line is all businesses suffer from what is called "Churn". The way to counteract this natural churn is to add new customers faster than the ones that leave due to churn. This can all be boiled down into a simple formula.

Churn Formula

Users at beginning of period + New additions - Users at the end of period = Lost Users or Churn


In February, we had 154k beg users + 73k new additions - 128k end users = 99k users lost. This means that for the month of February we lost the amount of new additions plus even took a hit to our overall active user base. February was not a good month.

I asked @paulag to run the number for the year to date so far. I had some suspicions of what the churn would show based on observations from dealing with so many people here in the last 5 months, so I wanted to find out. She put a post out (click here) and I will give you the numbers that I asked for in the chart (below).

churn.JPG

Note: I defined churn a little more strict than she did. I only count people as "active users" if they commented or posted during the preceding 2 weeks. The reason for being a bit more strict is: one, the people that "sell their votes" and don't post or comment aren't what I would define as "active", and two I think two weeks is a period of time that a user would login and either comment or post if they were to be considered active. I realize this is a more strict, but some platforms like facebook count active as "daily" users.

By looking at the number above it is clear that steemit is going through a "rough patch". Since the end of January with 154K active users, to the end of April with 127k, we have lost a net 27,000 active users or 17.5%. And that is with the net addition of 261,000 new users. So put another way, we ended January with 154,000 active users, then had new signups for 261,000 more, but ended up losing 288,000 from the active column by the end of April.

Now granted some of these new accounts are bot accounts, shell accounts, etc... But the bottom line is the churn on steemit is ugly for now. And while the value of steem might not depend directly on the health of steemit, it is nonetheless something that the owners and management should pay attention to. Good management would figure out a way to improve on these metrics and reduce the churn.

This might not signal anything other than the product/service we call steemit is going through a rough patch as I said earlier. But it is a factor that everyone should consider, and I'm sure that a good management team will find ways to make the necessary adjustments. I hope so, as I really want the bulls to be right and see steem price go to not only $16 but way beyond.

Summation

I have tried to give an even presentation of both the bull and the bear case for the price of steem. I think it is impossible for anyone in my position (not connected to any insiders) to do anything more than consider both sides of the equation. The reason I think it is important to go through such an exercise is to 1) be financially aware (some have a large sum of money at risk) and 2) to learn how things work and explore the factors that influence the price. Being well informed is always a good idea and I hope you have found this presentation to be useful. Only time will tell which side was right, but hopefully by going through this exercise we all got our minds a little more in tune with the facts.

A special thanks to @paulag for getting me the numbers to make this post possible

Image source bull

Image source bear

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This is one of the best articles I have read on Steemit. Your analyses were not only dispassionate, they were factual. You made me shiver when I read the part where you explained factors that could bring the price of Steem back to $0.16. While that's a possibility, an earthquake is better. All the same, I hope for a better day ahead.

Regards.

Thank you very much @gandhibaba, that is a very cool thing to say! I really appreciate the compliment :)

And yes I know about the shiver. While I don't have enough for myself to have it make much of a difference, I do have friends that have a lot and I hope they just keep their eyes open. At the end of the day I want the best of everything for everyone, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way.

And as for the hope for a better day, I am with you 100%... If I could wave a magic wand and make it happen, it would be $16 already!

I like it to read that not many people think that current issues are a real threat for Steemit. However I keep doubting if they aren't. Since the churn doesn't look positive.

I also had to laugh about your remark that "And while the value of steem might not depend directly on the health of steemit,". You could be right about that. If you are, then I will be proven wrong and Steemit will remain for years.

Hey @crypto-econom1st, I have been wanting to reply to this thread for a few days now... And I understand your point... Here is their argument, the price of steem is not tied to steemit... It is a cryptocurrency that has utility as a means of storing data and using the blockchain for transactions. Steemit is just one platform that uses it.

While I hear their points and believe that they might be right, I am with you in a little skepticism about the price if steemit disappears or worse dies. I know one thing for sure, the whales won't be able to harvest as many of their SPs through the bid bots if all the people at steemit leave. If that happens, then at least one of the reasons for owning steem would fade (and that is the 25% annual return for leasing out your steem power).

Good points and if I was a betting man, I would say you would be proven right in the shorter term (maybe in 2 years their argument might hold up).

There might also be another threat for Steemit: competitors.

But at this moment we really don't know if there will be any decent competitor in the future.

Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate it!

I agree completely... In fact if you talk to the EOS supporters, they believe it will blow away steem and steemit with what they develop... They actually have a bigger market value than steem right now... There is a lot of people putting real money on competition coming.

That's a pretty menacing bear you've got there. Is that what it looks like when people are selling their stocks or crypto? Yikes!

Steemit has been more down than up for me today, STEEM has been steadily dropping, and this last major downturn seemed to happen after the CEO appeared on Bloomberg.

So, as I said in my other reply, who knows where we're going. There's so many things STEEM has going for it that it should be higher than many other cryptos just because of its potential. But it's not. Is that because most of the top 10 crypto are relying on scarcity to drive their price, while that's not what's happening here?

Or is it others are looking at the price and wondering the same thing and decide it should be higher so they won't pull the trigger either?

I can't believe it's all about Steemit, or the allocation of rewards, or the predistribution. If it is, then how is STEEM ever going to go anywhere?

I would think for it to hit $0.16, you would have to see major SP leaving, SP that was been here since its inception, or thereabouts. It would have to be more than just the speculators giving up.

lol... I've finally gotten to your comment... and I have been meaning to tell you that we don't really get to see what the bear "looks" like when the bear is in action, but we do get to see the damage and that guy pretty much sums it up... torn shit and all :P...

As far as some of your other points, I am definitely not the expert on the technical aspects of what makes ETH or BTC better than steem... In fact from what I've heard on BTC, the costs of trading it are prohibitive... so maybe it got there first and is accepted? That explains one, the other 9 people like @mudcat36 is way more on that mission than me. He makes his living off knowing that.

I think you are right that steem about the value of steem as being more than steemit... I think steemit is an application and does consume lots of it, but the advocates say that steemit is really not relevant at all and the value of steem will be higher one way or the other. I know EOS is coming very soon as a rival and lots of steem believers have their feet in both camps... It should be launched very soon, definitely by end of summer and at that point (from what I've heard) we will find out a lot about how strong/weak steem will be. Plus supposedly the smart tokens and the communities that will spring up with them will also be a huge deal... I hear a lot of things, but always try to stay up at 30k feet and look at the big picture.

I do know two things, that is that this is a fast moving space and there are many people with many opinions. I try to listen to everything and reflect using the things I know... for instance on your last point, I completely agree. But every bear market I have seen has always looked so bad that people do "give up" and throw in the towel. My guess is if we crack $1.5, then people will worry about dropping below $1... And if we crack $1, there will be calls for even lower. At some point you end that cycle when the weak hands give up, the questions will be when will those weak hands be gone and why will they leave in the first place.

If you get any answers, please let me know... And ps... Haejin is now a 79... I don't think he is stoppable.

Haejin's been at 79 for a few weeks now. He's one third of a point away from being the only 80 ever. With some additional firepower from Wednesday of last week until a day or two ago, they were consistently knocking him down to $0 payout. Then, it slacked off, started up again for a while and has again slacked off.

Well, I'll let you know, but I doubt I'll hear anything before you do. You've got your ears in more camps than me. I just happen to stumble upon things here and there, and since I'm not doing nearly as much 'research' as I was, I'm pretty much relying on someone I'm following to resteem something.

Speaking of SMTs—prior to Ned saying something about it at I think Consensus, had you heard about the Good Person Token that's supposed to bring account based voting to Steemit? I hadn't. It was totally out of the blue as far as any update talk I've seen. Which makes me wonder just what that means for Hivemind/Community and HF 20, because it sounds like SMTs are front and center.

I didn't know he was that close to 80, so you are more up to date than me :P ... and on the SMT's I have seen some chatter about them coming this summer and the convo's were around how they were going to be individually community driven and policed and the people chitchatting about them really thought they would be a gamechanger... I personally don't have enough time to dig deep enough to really figure those aspects out. I do think there is a lot of competition coming and I recognize that people talk "their book" a lot... I was also surprised that the price of steem dropped after @ned spoke again at a major conference. I don't know what he said, but some of the people that trade it for a living told me this would've been the week to soar if it was going to... So it dropping was a bit of a surprise to them...

I have heard about Hivemind, not sure what it means or how revolutionary it will be. On the hard fork, I have been hearing it is coming for awhile now, I guess we will see soon enough. And no I haven't heard about Good Person Token, but I will buy one for you if its in the steem or sbd price range ;) ... :)

That's twice now the price has dropped after Ned speaks. Not sure why that is, since people around here want him out and about. Or at least to hear from him more often. Maybe smart money is realizing just how young he is? I don't know. I've never been able to figure out what moves markets, but it's not what makes me buy things.

That's disappointing, regardless. If it's supposed to soar. Maybe it's a delayed soar.

Hivemind is another layer that will go onto the blockchain to make it easier for apps to be built and access information faster. I guess there's certain things apps don't need direct access to the blockchain to, so Hivemind will act a sort of go between if I understand it right. Some are actually counting on Steemit becoming more robust because of Hivemind. Communities is supposed to come with it, which is what I think our interface is going to become. The hard fork has been ghost since the party Q & A in Austin a couple months ago where they talked about manually verifying accounts. Velocity is supposed to be the big deal there.

The good person token is the account based voting. One person, one vote. There's supposed to be a whitelist, which I guess is done through verifying you're a real person. Why it's not being called the real person token, or something else entirely, I don't know.

well first, I think the "good person" token sounds better than the real person... I wanted to buy you one if it was the good person token, but if its just a real person then I'm not too excited to compliment you as a "real person"... But I guess with all these bots flying around, maybe it is a compliment after all and I am just a step behind the times ;)...

Thanks for the update on Hivemind, that makes some sense as to why they are excited (a tech feature that might be innovative)... As far as new communities springing up outside of steemit (but on steem), I have my doubts about how that will work... I won't really air them here so that I'm not negative, but it seems like if there will be a migration to another platform it would most likely happen on another coin-based architechture... Mainly because I think it would be perceived that the same owners that control steem (the SP holders) would also still control the underlying infrastructure... I know that would be one of my concerns, so if I ever left (which I don't plan on doing), I doubt I would want to stay with my current overlords since I view them as the problem holding this place back.

Thanks for the update though, you are definitely more up on the details than me... I'm really curious as to what happens as haejin gets bigger and bigger... I think it will be fun to watch in some ways, especially remembering how many reacted when he was just a 75...

ps... I have heard he is going after certain bots now... (that's a plus in some ways)... I forget which one, but he's got a flag battle ranging for sure with one of them!

Well, good sounded subjective. What constitutes good around here? How about One Person Token, since it's supposed to be one person one vote? Oh well, we're not in on the naming, anyway.

I think communities is supposed to be on Steemit, not off. I think it's whatever the UI is supposed to be after it hits. Not sure what it supposed to look like, only basically forming communities around accounts. So, I guess you could make your account the community, or some other account. There was some talk about it having to do with the existing tags, too, but I haven't read that in a while so I don't know. I don't even really know what I think I know, since it's all third party, anyway.

Well, he was going after promobot for some reason, but I'm not sure that was turning out very well. Could be others. I haven't been following who he flags, just the ongoing flagging on him. He's apparently enjoying the visibility it's been giving him.

Hello @davemccoy
Luck when may be read the your analysis. I are a new Steemian and also does not hold many Steem. But I also care about the fluctuations of Cryto and Steem.
Your writing has given me a lot of interesting lessons.
Your analysis of power struggles between legal money and crypto is also problem
I always worry..
Besides, you certainly see that financial oligarchy always hold control in the currency markets, they hold the destiny of the stock market, and what happens in late 2017 and early 2018 for the crypto market I think is also caused by them.
For the financial oligarchy, We can invest long-term to avoid risk. But for the dangers of the government and the central bank, I was stuck on the solution.

Your statistics is really really do I sad. I hope the managers and support groups will soon have a solution. Our foundations need to be more interesting, that's what I think. For example, we can chat live on Steem and it's great.
I hope you will read your next analysis.
Have a great weeked!

I looked through your profile and you look like you are going to be a great one here one day! I like how many followers you have and I see the topics of interest. Yes it is true what you say about countries and central banks all over the world. That is why we all need to have open eyes so that we can keep track of what is going on. I hope to see you around and love your comment, thank you for engaging me and I will be happy to make more connections with you in the future!

Dear @davemccoy
It is a surprise when I receive "reply" from you. My reply has been 5 days. I seem to forgot it. It also means that you are very busy, so thank you for taking the time for me & followed me.
I have followed you from before and I hope on "My Feed" will have your analysis. We will interact more. I really want to know how crypto will change the world.
Have a nice day!

some more great insight from @davemccoy - I certainly hope it doesn't get to .16 but if it does , you can be sure that I will buying up a big chunk if it. It would be interesting to a chart of how many accounts are actually bots vs real accounts. As mentioned in the comments - many people have multiple accounts - I can barely keep up with one account much less create additional accounts to follow up with. Keep up the great work - I enjoy reading your breakdown of how things work. Personally - I'm a bull - so I'm looking for it to go to 16$ and then some....

I am with you on that one.. while there are many that say that would be terrible, I point it out and wonder to myself just why would I mind if that happened... I sure would like to own 100,000 steem... that would be very easy at that price... who knows, if things go right, I might even shoot for a million at that price ;)

thank you very much for the nice words and also for adding to the post with you other comments too!

and on your prediciont, I think you are probably right, but I like to take it to the extremes to make people think... ;)

I have long believed that the "active user" figures are way smaller, in all actuality, than the numbers that people bandy about. I think people dramatically underestimate the number of accounts that are spam accounts controlled by comment farms, bots, double accounts, etc.

Anecdotally, almost everyone I know that is a long time active user has at least one other account... and those are real live people (not spammers). Many/most of the people I know on here who have been on platform for more than a few months have considerably more than one other account. I myself have [SECRET NUMBER] of accounts :) This is obviously not necessarily nefarious, one might e.g. have extra accounts for a community or project, or for short form blogging, or blogging on different topic. My current best guess for actual number of active, actual human, non-spam, non-brand new users is more in the 50k range. Maybe even lower.

One thing you didn't mention in the analysis on why the price is unlikely to drop to $.16 are the mechanisms hard coded into the blockchain to prevent that from happening. As price drops below $1, SBD that you put in "savings" in your wallet (locking in for 3 days before you can withdraw) will begin to earn interest. The rate of interest will depend on how low the price goes.

Good overview of a lot of the basics. Cheers - Carl

Awesome @carlgnash! You just taught me something that I didn't know... I was always wondering why they had that steem dollar savings account (that paid no interest)... Now I know... Was it meaningful interest? Did many people put money into it in the "old" days? I came in at the end of last year, so I missed the really cheap days last summer.

And thank you for also explaining the dupe account issue more clearly. I actually figured out that there were far less people on the platform than I originally thought when I realized I kept bumping into the same people on a regular basis. So the multiple accounts explain a lot of the numbers away for sure. I still hope we keep developing the communities so that we get more sticky to the newbies coming in... If we can up our retention rates, the place will just grow that much faster!

Look more closely at the historic price of Steem... There may be a correlation between Steem price and distinct active user base. or maybe it was just whales harvesting coins from their alt accounts....

great idea! I'd like to see a correlation chart on that too..

same question I asked to RE, and I might be being blockheaded here, but what is correlation in your opinion? Number of total account with price, number of voting accounts with price of steem? etc

It is interesting RE, I'm not sure what you mean by the correlation... are you saying the higher the price of steem went, the more distinct active users? Which is correlated to what and I will follow up on that idea!

The results confirm what I have observed and suspected as well. Lot's of new accounts but also lot's of abandoned or rarely used accounts.

For me, who recently opened the account, this comes as no surprise. Many will open the account because it's one way to monetise your posting. They see the the postings with $800 on the trending page and think to themselves: I can produce posting of that quality. And of course they can.

But they might not notice that must of the upvotes where from upvote bot and once they notice a lot will abandon there account. But upvote bots need to be payed for and here we come quickly into territory which smells of pyramid scheme which will make people turn away from the platform.

And once Minds has there crypto up (currently in beta on a test net) and this will get worse. I have a Minds account as well and Minds is far more friendly towards small / new accounts.

And yes Steem if more versatile then Mindstoken but to understand that you need to use the account for a while.

One last thought: Another interesting statistic would be the amount of plankton who make it to become minnow. That's when you cross the one million vest / ≈500 STEEM POWER threshold.

My prediction: Exponential decline.

Very insightful analysis and I think very well stated... I don't know about Mindstoken... But I do agree with what happens to the youngens and also agree that it is very difficult to move up... This is especially true as the price of steem goes higher... the higher it goes, the even harder it gets. That's something that I think is an issue that doesn't really get talked about enough.

I would like to point out a few things.

We have had sub-tokens on the Steem-blockchain for a while and they are traded externally on openledger. @biophil created the pocket-token 8 months ago, if you don't have any you should learn about them. You can get some for free check if you check #pocket for the guy that runs a weekly improv contest to giving away pocket tokens. If you like the idea of SMTs you should thank @biophil for his development work on sub-token on this block-chain.
@biophil and @smooth have talked up the fact that this block-chain has some amazing features for transfer of tokens. All transactions are cleared within 3 mins, and the only cost to make transactions on this block-chain is to hold a little amount of in"vested" tokens.
etherum and bitcoin both charge you for transactions.

Steemit is only one of the gateways to the Steem-blockchain and therefore not solely responsible for the value of Steem(token).
Steem(the tradeable token) and the Steem-blockchain originally had value tied to Steemit but as the user base of the Steem-blockchain has grown we have had spin off companies arise that also give value to the Steem-blockchain.

Not all of that market cap is directly due to Steemit, there are other companies on the Steem-blockchain that increase the value of Steem without needing Steemit (busy.org, dtube, dporn, and the korean site all bring more customers to the block-chain).

As an overall I think Steemit as a company and an idea for blogging platform has failed.... for it to get to its roots of being a blogging company the rewards need to be stretched out more than 1 week and they need to kick all their competitors off the blockchain.

Blogs still have value 2 years later and should be rewarded for bring viewers then. Rewards should be paid out weekly for each upvote that is brought to an item on the blockchain and not be subject to a seven day period.

The current rewards structure suits a social media platform like facebook or a meme site where content only have value for a few days...

Until the rewards structure is changed we should be thinking about the Steem-blockchain as the next social media platform that will compete with facebook, youtube, and maybe paypal.

Good points. There are a few fundamental flaws and I wonder if only a Steemit 2 can fix them.

Since you are a shareholder in this blockchain --> What do you think about where the blockchain should head in direction?

Should Steemit work on fixing the rewards, buy out the other companies that own large stock in the blockchain(dmania, dtube, etc.), and make it a blog only block-chain?

Should we embrace the SMTs; the potential they have for bringing large communities to the blockchain, and stop pretending this is a blog only blockchain? ..... If we as vested users of this block-chain create hype about dtube and we can steal 30-50% of youtubes traffic imagine what that would do for the value of steem???

Do you think we should have a constitution on this blockchain that gives us a more clear direction and consensus as a group about what this blockchain is; what is allowed and where we are headed? <-- this might get rid of the whale wars drama....

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very well written... I have a question with you about these other platforms that you mention... Can they be used completely separate with steemit? In other words, do the rules of steemit apply on those sites? For instance, no upvoting required... if that doesn't apply to those platforms, can someone on steemit flag those accounts and somehow take away your rewards? If so, then in a way they are not completely "free"... but if they are, then it is awesome!

Great analysis @davemccoy
Welll I think steem price never gonna be $0.16.

If a huge gov crackdown happens that when the world knows that crypto are actually a threat for them that they have to spend money trying to destroy money.

Yes that is one of the things that I'm watching for... So far they seem to be ok with letting it stick around as a kinda experiment, but I would expect at some point they will go after it in one way or another. Maybe that point is many multiples from here though, that I don't know and certainly would have no idea what they have in their heads.

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