Death By Bidbot: The Fair Use Of Steem

in #steemit5 years ago

bad_robot.jpg

Is Steemit fair or unfair? Is it fair that a post about puppies has over $300 whilst a well thought out article with clever poetry and intricate prose by @quillfire gets less than $1?

Of course the puppy shitposter would say yes, and @quillfire would say no. Some of you would agree with the shitposter whilst (hopefully) more of you would agree with Quill.

Does Fair Exist?

Perhaps that is the problem, the concept of fairness is completely and utterly subjective. Take taxation for instance, in my country (UK) a person pays 23% income tax, unless they earn more than a certain amount of money in a year. Then that same person might pay 40% or even 50%.

However can that really be viewed as fair? The person who earns say £25,000 per year and pays 23% would say yes, they have less money so they should pay less.

The person earning £250,000 per year might say no, that regardless of income the percentage paid should be the same.

Both sides could no doubt come up with some very valid arguments as to why they should pay less, whilst the other side pays more.

The Objectivity Of Fair

Clearly we can see many scenarios whereby what is fair to one person, is distinctly classed as unfair to another. However is there such a thing as objective fairness?

Perhaps we can say it is unfair for a person to kill an innocent child, or rape a woman, as we have deemed murder and rape as universally wrong.

However it could be argued that those things are still subjectively fair. In ancient Rome infanticide (killing children) was common practice. Roman contraception was not the best, at the same time they were partial to the odd orgy or two, this combination of sex and poor contraception led to a lot of unwanted babies. It was considered a fair practice to simply toss your newborn child onto a pile of rubbish and let them die.

In the Bronze Age, and indeed in some cultures today, it was seen as fair to rape a woman as long as you married her afterwards, or paid her father a sum of money for despoiling his daughter.

Slavery is also seen as ultimately unfair, yet in the Bible and the Koran there are guidelines on how to keep and beat your slaves in accordance with god's wishes.

There are not too many people on earth today who believe that slavery is fair. So perhaps fairness is completely subjective, it just depends on who you are and what era you live in, on whether you'll find something fair or not.

Steem Fair

So are bidbots fair?

I have thus far kept out of the bidbot debate. For those of you who don't know, or are reading this outside the bubble of Steemit. Bidbots are pieces of software that have accrued huge amounts of Steem Power (the currency of Steemit.com), who then lease their SP to Steemit users so they can boost their posts.

The upshot is that somebody making an entirely lame post about puppies or the wall in their back garden, can pay a bidbot some money and that bot will vote up their valueless article to the top of the trending page for all to see.

In some ways I think this is totally fair enough, the blockchain is about a truly free market whereby everyone has the same opportunities as each other to exploit the market as they see fit.

Even though I don't use them, up until now I haven't begrudged anyone else using them, because me not being involved with them was a personal choice, rather than being blocked from using them by some hidden legislative power. In other words:

Live and let live.

Now though, especially with the price of Steem tanking, I have come to the conclusion, that bidbots aren't fair.

They aren't being fair to all of the people who have put in hard work to create good content on Steemit over the last two and a half years.

People like myself who have resisted the temptation to shitpost, and have tried to create content that will enrich Steemit and make it as popular a social media platform as Reddit or Facebook.

Because let me tell you, when I think back on the thousands of hours I have put into creating posts, then I see some numpty post about his puppies. Or some lazy sod copy and paste a pdf they googled, it really sticks in the throat.

What To Do?

Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done, the blockchain code is open source, meaning that anyone can grab the Steem APIs and do what the hell they want.

Bidbots are here to stay, so the question on whether they're fair is pretty much a moot point. What we should really be asking ourselves is:

Are bidbots ruining the Steem blockchain?

In my mind, yes they are.

The days before the bidbots, when the Steem price went down, just as today, user activity also declined. However the difference then was that the reward pool, which stays the same regardless of the amount of users, was getting spread around the users who decided to stick around.

So in other words, when the price went down, users went down, individual rewards went steadily up.

Nowadays, we do not see this sweet little algorithm, because the bidbots are able to pool a large percentage of the rewards for their paying customers, leaving the rest of us to scrabble around in the dirt for scraps.

What's The Solution?

I'm not sure there is one, or if indeed we need one. Perhaps things only seem unfair to me because I am not benefiting from the bidbots.

Perhaps it is simply a case of, it is what it is, if the bidbots contribute to Steem going back to zero then so be it.

If potential new users come to the Trending Page and see a $300 dollar puppy article, right above a $200 dollar picture of somebody's cat and that makes them think Steemit is a scam, then that's just the way it is.

I don't know if there's a solution, for me it is sad though. I've put a lot of work into Steemit and the situation at the moment saddens me. It doesn't seem fair that I can no longer get on the Trending Page without paying for the privilege.

It doesn't seem fair that quality high-value posts, that could potentially benefit hundreds or thousands of people will never get more than a dollar and won't be seen by hardly anyone.

It doesn't seem fair that the trending page at the moment makes Steemit look like a scam.

It doesn't seem fair that bidbots are killing my beloved Steemit . . .

WHAT DO YOU THINK; ARE BIDBOTS FAIR? OR IS IT RIDICULOUS TO EVEN THINK IN TERMS OF FAIRNESS? HAVE YOU USED BIDBOTS BEFORE OR WOULD YOU CONSIDER USING THEM?

REMEMBER, THIS IS A JUDGEMENT FREE ZONE AND WHETHER YOU ARE A BIDBOT USER, OR EVEN OWNER, YOU ARE NOT BEING ATTACKED HERE. SO AS EVER, LET ME KNOW BELOW WHAT YOU THINK!

Cryptogee

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Bidbots, were never a positive force for the blockchain, or an honest way for the platform to operate, regardless of the price of STEEM being low or not. That's irrelevant to the behavior being good or bad for the platform.

All that you see now was visible before: people who work to earn their way get bypassed by those who buy their way to the top; the community gets bypassed from an honest evaluation of the content by those who buy their way to the top.

Live and let live is only valid when there is no misbehavior occurring. When there are problems, you don't just let them live on and ignore them. Bidbots are a misbehavior for a successful social media evaluation platform. It perverts and destroys the purpose and potential success.

Those who use them are cheating the their way by not playing by the rules of earning their way there. If we want to create something better than society, we have to be better, not just cheat our way when we can just because we can, with "live and let live" bs.

Judgment is core to life and living. Without judgment, there is no determination of anything, anywhere. Rape and murder are just fine in that case. Whether something is creating overall positives or negatives in a system if meaningless, and anything is allowed to go on. This isn't how reality works.

Get judging reality around and see what is better to do and what is worse to do, and then reality can be better to live in. Steem can be better, if we want to make it better. Steem can succeed, if we want to make it succeed. Or we can just avoid judging bad things and just let greed and anyone do what they want and create a cesspool that no one wants to touch, and rightfully so.

@krnel,

I could not have said it more succinctly and more accurately and, in accordance with your username, you have my salute. I was going to leave a long and detailed comment to this post but have instead opted for a post.

We can, at any moment we decide, kill the bidbots and I will explain precisely how.

But here's the thing: The bidbots are owned by Whales and Witnesses ... why would anyone be surprised that they argue that bidbots can't be disabled. As I will explain, they could be disabled within 24 hours ... but it would require support of the Top 20 Witnesses ... and hence, the Whales (with their stake-weighted votes) who determine who gets to be a Top 20 Witness.

There actually is an alternative way to kill bidbots over the objection of Whales and Witnesses but I'm keeping it to myself for the moment on the off chance that I can make it happen on my own.

I will tag you on the article.

Happy New Year.

Quill

Hehe, glad you agree about the problem, and looking forward to hearing your solution :) I'd like to hear about your super secret method as well ;)

@krnel,

I've decided to spill all. :-)

Quill

great discussion @quillfire...

thanks for that

During my year on SteemIt, I've been going back and forth about using bidbots. I tried them for a while, then stopped. Used them again for some time, stopped again. I've been bidbot-free for a while now.

I think it's mainly the abuse of bidbots that is making things unfair. I would understand that a good author who just wrote a great piece of content, would want some more visibility and uses a bidbot.

Unfortunately, when money is involved, people go bezerk, and massive abuse of the bidbots is the result.

Once again, a privilege of the rich. If you can afford to spend a couple of 100 steem you can get your shit-post to trending. And even worse: you get rewarded for it. When you have a post on trending, you still receive more followers, more votes,...

I think there should have been added a category for posts upvoted by the bidbots long ago, separate from the articles that aren't paid for.

But bidbots are by far not the biggest thread to SteemIt. The management is...

I like the idea of a bid-bot category, in fact the promoted tab should be converted, seeing as nobody uses that service any more.

Cg

I completely disagree bid bots change anything. Afterall, all you should do is ignore the trending page, right?

What makes you think curation deserving posts would see better upvotes if there were no bid bots?

STEEM's problem is not the blockchain.

The trending page is the calling card for new users, how are they meant to know that they should ignore it?

What makes you think curation deserving posts would see better upvotes if there were no bid bots?

Because I was around before the bidbots existed.

Cg

The trending page is the calling card for new users, how are they meant to know that they should ignore it?

By using their brains.

Because I was around before the bidbots existed.

... I guess logic is worth shit nowadays.

By using their brains.

So somebody who comes across a completely new concept, and wants to find out more, is somehow not using their brain because they have no idea how it works?

Pretty harsh.

What about you? Are you able to instantly understand new concepts and ideas after only a few seconds of studying them? If so, please link me to the genius inventions you have obviously been involved in.

Cg

You have some weird interpretations about what I wrote, but I'm still interested in this:

What makes you think curation deserving posts would see better upvotes if there were no bid bots?

Can you give me a logical answer? Because of bad mood I was having at the time, I couldn't be polite (sorry about that). I want to know why you think that, nowadays, posts would get better upvotes if there were no bid bots.

Can you give me a logical answer? Because of bad mood I was having at the time, I couldn't be polite (sorry about that). I want to know why you think that, nowadays, posts would get better upvotes if there were no bid bots.

No problem.

The reason I think it would be better is because of what we saw in the first price fall after the initial excitement, and in subsequent price drops before the bidbots.

So when the price drops, you also get a corresponding drop in users. This means that there are less users around producing content, meaning that the whales and dolphins (and curation teams) who stuck around found it easier to find good content.

Also it meant it was easier to get on the trending page because of less competition. Whilst the big SP holders still have their favourites, their votes were spread more evenly, because they were less inclined to vote up lame posts with big amounts.

So this meant that the same size reward pool was being shared among the smaller user base, and within that base it tended to be (mostly) the higher quality posts getting voted. This meant that new people were getting noticed and they were getting higher rewards, which in turn drew people back to the platform, which made the price go up.

Now with the bidbots, the votes are not getting spread about in the same human way. Now it is just a case of the trending page being driven by the highest bidder.

So in the past a price drop might have seen a trending page full of interesting quality articles, now with the bidbots that won't happen.

So that was my point, is that the bidbots have had an unforseen negative impact on Steemit, and since Steemit is the main driver of the price of Steem, then so too have they had an adverse effect on that as well.

I just think that price drops used to be an opportunity for quality content producers to get themselves heard without so much noise. So maybe as someone suggested, the bidbot posts should have their own tag, and leave the trending page to the organically voted content.

Cg

There's also how The global "new posts" page is actually curateable now. (Post is 9 days old). If someone paid me to make a list of every single awesome new post, 5 to 7 days a week, I would.

Yeah I just read that, good point, and perhaps an unforseen benefit of the RC system. Sure the new tag is good, however that's not my issue.

My issue is the fact that Trending is the first page you see as a potentially new user. When I share my articles on FB, 99.99% of my 'friends' are not Steemit users. Ergo if they do read my article, hitting the trending tag is probably what a lot of them do. Most, if not all of them will be put off by that page, and what's worse, they won't understand why it's a load of crap.

If someone paid me to make a list of every single awesome new post, 5 to 7 days a week, I would.

I used to do that for free, but then after the bidbots it became very difficult to find good content.

Cg

What if bidbot SP delegators instead decided to upvote stuff themselves? That would be great and it would completely eliminate the need for bidbots. But they won't do it, generally because it just doesn't pay enough.

So the real solution is coming up with ways to sufficiently award those SP holders so they don't feel like relying on bidbots is their best option. Because let's face it, it's generally one of the best options.

Hmm, I don't agree, using autovote works well, you can follow curation trails or make your own. Sure it's faster to just delegate to a bid bot, however as far as returns are concerned you can make just as much, if not more by using the autovote service.

Cg

I think bidbots are terrible and are a loophole that go against the intended purpose of Steemit. Steem Monsters had the same problem, but they made some very creative updates to really reduce the effectiveness of bots. The bots are still there, but their rewards have been shrunk such that real players can always do better.

Interesting, I haven't really kept up with Steem Monsters, can you tell me what their problems were with bots, and how they sorted them out?

Cg

It's hard to explain unless you know the game, but essentially bots were mining cards with automated accounts because cards have value and can be sold in the market. To make it harder on bots, each match now has a random set of rules, so the same deck of cards won't always win. It was still a problem, so they changed the rewards so bots can now only mine from a small subset of cards. This affects players too of course, but real players can still trade for or purchase new decks. Also, real players getting better cards will then always beat bots, and so rewards were increased for higher ranked players that are not bots. It's not quite worth the effort to be a bot anymore, the better players can earn more than a bot making a bunch of spam accounts.

That's not too say the bots are all gone, but it's a lot harder to win now against real people and the value of cards on the market have gone up now that it's not being flooded by bots.

so they changed the rewards so bots can now only mine from a small subset of cards.

Very interesting, and it shows that something can be done about rogue bots messing up the system.

That's not too say the bots are all gone, but it's a lot harder to win now against real people and the value of cards on the market have gone up now that it's not being flooded by bots.

Even though I don't play, that fills me with happiness. It means the game has a chance to grow, as normal people will see that they have a chance to compete against other human players. Nice.

I really think Steemmonsters could end up being the making of the Steem blockchain.

Thanks for the info! 🙄😁👍

Cg

What is a shit post is subjective. Lots of people like cats .... Steemit / Steem isn't the only place cute animal pictures get lots of views / rewards. Some of the highest view videos on Youtube are cat videos.

The world is unfair and so is life. This will never change. No matter what system is in place someone or some group will find something unfair about it. I have no problem with bot use. There are more bigger issues currently like the poor choice of introducing the crap RC limitations.

I agree, a shit post may be subjective. However when you add financial reward into the mix it is a lot easier to define a shitpost.

A picture of my breakfast might be great on Twitter/Facebook et. al. However if I get $200 for it on Steemit, then that is shit, especially if I'm doing it over and over again. Because no matter what universe you're from, getting a couple of hundred bucks for a shitty pic of my breakfast is shit.

Cg

One also have to remember that the $200 in rewards is likely the authors own $200. Thus they are not getting $200 in rewards but simply getting their own money back.

I am sure a Chief would disagree with you.

Very true, however somebody seeing Steemit for the first time does not know that.

Cg

Bidbots are killing the reputation. May be reputation should be made irrelevant

Posted using Partiko iOS

That doesn't really make sense, please elaborate.

Cg

To move up by 1 point on reputation with out using bidbots might take several posts and upvotes.
With bidbots this can be achieved with even a single post with vote buying.
The reputation is losing the value.
Hope I’m clear
Best wishes

Posted using Partiko iOS

Ah I see!

Good point, I hadn't even thought about that. Because of course it's not how many votes you get, but rather how many weighted votes you get, that ups your reputation.

Yes, it is another shame about the bidbots :-(

Cg

Your ideas are premised on a seeming materialist view of metaphysics. There is a problem that most all religions addressed in some way. That there are those on earth who are not what they seem and are lying about who and what they are.
These Archons are practicing what is best described as antinomianism. There is ample evidence that the most prolific group of liars on the earth today are Kaballistic Antinomian Luciferians​​. This is a group of people who are willfully lying and committing institutionalized​ lawlessness at unprecedented​ scales.
And, yes, they are everywhere on this blockchain.
I could get into what a fair healthy blockchain​ would look like but you've correctly assessed that it won't happen so it's pointless.
Good post nevertheless...

It's worth noting that the economic ideology used by this group was liberalism--selling the idea that people can do whatever they want whenever they want in the name of ego-driven profit...

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I have never thought the use of bidbots was particularly fair, but what do you do?

If you are new to the platform, you want to see some money attached to your posts. Back when Steem was $5, I would be happy with $1 in Steem for say a podcast entry. It made me yearn to do a lot better, learning the markdown code, etc.

I incorporated Steepshot (before it failed) so I could post what I thought was interesting a lot faster.

People are still making good money here, despite the Steem price, but have to use bots or Minnow Booster to get noticed.

The return on investment for these things still isn't worth it, unless the amount of upvotes gets you to the 'hot' section.

But even then, it still boils down to content or value. Get to the front page, sure, but then when people click on it are they going to have a good experience or a bad one?

If it doesn't translate to follows by real people, what then is the point of the exercise.

It's difficult to change gears mentally, be honest, and see where my content is crap and needs to be a whole lot better.
It can play all sorts of mind games and can be soul crushing at times.

Posted using Partiko Android

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