A false free market

in #steemit6 years ago

I touched upon this a little bit in a post yesterday but I think it deserves a little more attention, Steem is not a free market where the market decides supply. It has never been and has become even less so over the last ten months with the bidbots operating in the waters.

As much as people claim freedom here, what is supplied is not bound by what is demanded. I talked about this in respects to popularity as normally, popular is dictated by the group, a democratic election. However, since Steem is a stake-based system, democratic process is of very little consequence.

With manual curation of content, there is an element of market influence on price and popularity of content even though there is a weighted bias but, with self-voting and more importantly, bidbots, the laws of supply and demand are no longer in play as the largest influences.

Imagine starting up a business and not actually needing clients to purchase products at all to make a profit. Instead, it is possible to buy your own products and turn a profit or, pay for someone else to buy your products for more than their value and give them a large kickback while pocketing the difference. This is essentially what is happening.

The interesting thing here though is that the profits are even larger for those self-voting and bidbotting than for the majority that live in a free market system. Yep, just like the profits of those who operate in protected industries, industries that if protected at the mature level, tend to become entitled, complacent, lower-quality and corrupt.

They often become this way because they no longer need to worry too much about actual demand or competition as they can not only provide for themselves, they can undercut the competition or, push them out completely. Governments are protected by their own laws and as a result, are highly inefficient but, highly profitable for players within the system.

Essentially, the system is a protected where those with stake make profits on their own content which locks the pool from other content providers. This makes it hard to break into the market to get the attention if an established account, only protects its staked quota or shares it with those who share it back in return.

One can always use bidbots but, this is the same as paying high import tariffs - taxes. Yes, you can get into the market but, the government is going to take its cut and either pocket it or distribute it back to the ones already protecting the pool, most likely, your competition.

So for example, using @paulag's post form a few hours ago on bidbot figures in April, 345,000 SBD was sent to bidbots and they took 31% of all curation rewards and a total of ~11% of all Steem earnings in the month. Not bad considering they only make up 1.5% of all the votes. I will remind, this is only for the major and known bidbots. Factor in that many of the same operators and delegators are also posting and self-voting on their main and alt acocunts and voting each other, and that number shifts even more heavily in their favour.

Now, I self vote too. At the moment, I have 28 posts open (and one on an alt) that are self voted. My vote is worth ~10 (less most of the time but close enough). That means I upvote 290 dollars worth in 7 days. That is a lot isn't it? Ah, but I also pay 100 Steem a week in delegation costs. So at 50/50, 145 SBD buys about 120 Steem, and I earn about 45 Steem on the posts, leaving 190 Steem profits. But, my vote is 5 dollars by itself, so I can earn almost the same without the delegation as I wouldn't have to pay 100 Steem for it. However, the other 50-60 percent of my voting power doesn't go to me, it goes to the community and that community figure is twice as large with delegation.

If I went full Haejin?

That would be about 700 dollars a week, 350 SBD buys ~300 Steem plus 100 Steem. That puts me 300 Steem up after paying the delegation instead of 90. And this is without any community vote at all. Of course, I am unlikely to get as many community votes if I act like an ass (perhaps I will attract some more too) but, there it is. Since I self-vote about 40% (normally a little less), 60% (400 dollars) goes into the community a week on comments and other people's posts.

The reason I am open with all of this isn't because it is all on the blockchain anyway, it is to try and work out a balance point for growing my own account and being a useful member of the community. Me acting as if this is an actual free market system is going to be very, very detrimental to my own growth while the protectors protect not only their investment but, grow their investment exponentially without having to be concerned with community demand at all.

For me, community demand is still something I consider as after all, this is a community and to survive long term, it requires more community actors. I try to add value with the words I use and help those I can along the way. Also, no matter the conditions of the market or Steemit, I have been posting consistently like this for over a year now.

I try to balance my content with supply and demand as I think that eventually, a free market system has to replace a self-protected marketplace. Some people might think my content is poor which is is fine but, if held up to the light in contrast to what might take my weekly earnings from the pool in one post, I think it is hard to say it doesn't deserve a reward of some kind.

Unfortunately these days, self-reward is a large part of my returns but, I don't feel so bad about this considering that I have powered up so much and share so much across the community. Some have recommended I be a little more selfish and grow my account more and worry less about the community since nothing is actually going to change here until, the code changes.

Code is Law.

Because the code incentivizes selfish behaviors over community ones and the difference is very large, people will always look to maximize and some will maximize very efficiently without consideration for others at all. Haejin is someone who successfully games the system... so far. But, he is only the largest single user (if you don't count his very generous whale friend). The bidbots are taking much more from the pool (including the curation side) than he is and factor in some of the very large accounts with up to 10 alts posting multiple times a week each and, Haejin is just a slightly taller poppy.

Even the curation return disincentivizes manual curation as it pays only in SP, not 50/50 like a normal payout. With SBD riding so high, this is a massive value difference. 10 dollars in curation is about 2.5 Steem but, if it was paid 50/50, it would be 1.25 Steem + 5 SBD which could buy 4.5 Steem making the total 5.75 Steem compared to 2.5 from SP curation.

Would making that change be enough to return people to manually curate while SBD is high? Perhaps some with good conscience but the Bidbots still outperform that return for the operators and delegators.

The Fool Card

The problem currently is that there are so many ways that narrow distribution and grow those who aren't community-minded and very few that help those who are deserving of the support as they are distributors and community minded themselves. This makes those who don't game the system fools, those that do the winners of a sinking ship.

I wonder, just for hypothetical sake what the system would look like if it was actually a free market. I know the code means it will never happen but what if content was actually King and the best way to earn here was to either produce great content that the market accepted as such or, curate content?

What I think would soon happen is that there would be very similar complaints to now as much of the content that is posted is so far below average it is very likely to get any support at all while that which is worthy, takes a large amount more. Of course, some of the current highly rewarded would drop from the ranks as their protection is removed but in time, there would again be familiar faces in Trending each day although their content will be of a higher caliber.

Would your content make it to trending, does your community service get rewarded in a free market?

This is a question that people should really ask themselves before complaining about the reward system or not being rewarded as if their content and comments don't hold up under community scrutiny, why should it be rewarded at all? It isn't good enough just to say, "but other shit is getting rewarded, so my shit should be too."

Yeah, there are a lot of considerations, issues and challenges facing Steem and this is just looking at one or two of them in a very casual manner. I always thought and still believe that humanity can do what is right for a community without being forced by an authority but, I don't think we are there yet.

This is one of the ironies of the Code is Law argument as essentially it is saying that, "Unless told otherwise, I am going to do what the code allows."

We are governed. Nothing is free.

Taraz
[ a Steemit original ]

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I will still live with 0% self voting ratio and I will not use bidbots. You are right in what you are saying and I am also a bit disappointed to see that whales dictate what is good and what is not good. Also I was expecting to see a more hand-on approach by Steemit Inc.
This is not a lashing out but as you said, a simple observation I have made.
You seem to put up valid points for reading and debate here and you do have a powerful voice, more powerful than mine anyway and for that I think that you can self vote. Although I will still not do it.

Alex, you must be too young to remember communist Romania. I was 19 when Ceausescu fell and spent many months reading and thinking about what had happened in the previous 50 years. Without knowing, I discovered the power of the Viable System Model of Stafford Beer and of the autopoietic social systems of Luhmann.

Communism could not have been defeated by simply resisting its rules. Time flows in one direction. You culd have resisted all your life and the only result of that would have been a miserable life. The only valid options were "fight" and "flight" - either try to change it or flee the country

It's very similar to steem. By not self-voting you are a silent dissident. You impose hardness on yourself ... possibly for no visible and durable effect at all.

I prefer to fight - fight the same fight as @tarazkp, trying to militate for a commnly agreed change. The risks are also far lower than they would have been had my parents (I was too young) tried to do the same during Ceausescu's time in Romania

Yes, I am too young for that. I have read a lot but it's not the same as living.
I am the idiot that waits legally in traffic while everyone blocks the intersection around me.
I am the idiot that will not pay bribes to get things done and the idiot that will lose more because of not pushing back when he needs to.
I need to consider drawing a line somewhere, I just need to decide where. I will study how the delegation works, I did a little research before and it wasn't worth it (without self-voting).

I used to not self vote and only really started after the bidbots. I was recommended to by someone I trust on the matter considering the ecosystem and thinking long-term. Remember that I have around 1600 posts similar to this one and for the first 6-8 months, I struggled very heavily. If I don't self vote, I can't pay the delegation. If I give up the delegation, more is lost from the community than the price of it.

I don't think there is a single one of your readers that would criticize what you do with your SP. I don't know if you have ever thought of it this way, but you are basically rewarding positive behaviors with your voting habits. It's a mild form of social programming.

When people interact, when they give you valuable input you reward them with upvotes and thoughtful replies. This might be my observation and I may even be alone on this one, but its very effective because it stimulates conversations.

This is not about why you are right and everyone is wrong, and the comments below are not about you defending yourself because you have an opinion. This is as social as this experiment gets.

If you went full haejin... idk if you ever could, it seems too far from your own personal values, but also I would suspect your social currency is a lot more valuable to you than SBDs. I think in that sense we agree.

I totally understand and this is why I have left the first post. I have written about poverty and gender equality and you are right, nothing went through. I will have to think about it, my self vote means nothing for me like this, but if I start to self vote and buy delegations and push ideas to the community, then it will make sense, actually it's the only way its making sense.
It's why I support you!

i really appreciate your candor and think it is wise to use your account's power to perpetuate your account. steemit is a social site and we're here to be a part of a community, but there is also moderate self-interest. it sounds like you're striking a very fine balance of the two! congrats :) i haven't seen many larger accounts articulate their positions on this matter and i really value that kinda stuff so points for you!!

lately, we've been getting a big dtube upvote on some of our postings. it's nothing to "count on", but i came here as a blogger (who wanted to learn how to vlog, but primarily as a blogger). it's weird that a 2 min video (with 1-2 our edit/upload time) gets waaaaay more than a 2 hour post (that was created from a 3 hour life experience/documented along the way). as a content creator and someone who is trying to make an (side) income/ enhance my account, i'm obviously going to be grateful for this this dtube favor and post videos, but it feels so weird that my content that i put a lot of time into doesn't get upvoted. i'm not complaining haha, but i do think that we have some great content and we never got a "whale friend" or anything. steemit is weird like that. it really doesn't matter if you have great content.. unless someone takes a favor to you, good luck!! it truly is a false free market in that sense... following you!

So true, but if the "dtube fairy" doesn't cast its vote for a video, then most of them would struggle too. I do worry that there is over-reliance on dtube for its vote on that platform. Maybe dtube rewards will help encourage more to step in and spread the voting power but for now it looks very much dtube vote-loaded.

totally agree here. i hope dtube rewards will also incentivize others. as many in these discussions are saying, ethics only go so far and that the way the system is set up "wins" to a certain point. we're given the options to work in our own best interest which may not benefit others and vice versa. looking forward to what SMTs do to the ecosystem and communities, too. hopefully soon!

However, the other 50-60 percent of my voting power doesn't go to me, it goes to the community and that community figure is twice as large with delegation.

A really good and honest post and I think you are leading by example with your actions - particularly reinvesting in delegated voting power to contribute to the community.

It isn't just about the community, I am selfish and have my own ethics to satisfy.

nothing wrong with that! i think there are many on steemit who are saying we shouldn't "be selfish" with our SP. this is not only a community platform, but also an investor's platform and what is a stake if it doesn't bring a positive ROI?

I'm gonna keep giving you shit for the fun of it, because you do have a tendency to go long occasionally on posts and post a fuckton, but I don't think you post shit. There are many that make some good posts. But it really seems like this place disincentivizes posting quality content.

On the one hand, you have people pushing others to work harder on posts (which I'm really slow to write), and on the other you have so many shit posts earning a lot. I don't think my shit posts deserve rewards, but I see no evidence that good posts get rewarded. Some good posts get rewarded. And some shit posts get rewarded. I'm starting to think it's better to just post as much as possible, and forget quality. Just make it the best you can while getting out as many posts as possible.

I don't feel right buying upvotes, even for the posts I think are worth far more, because I feel like it's going against the social contract of this place. You are basically bribing someone to upvote you. But there's no better option yet TBH. I technically probably should be vote buying, or buying delegation and posting as much as possible, but I want this place to succeed, and part of that is actually doing my part to curate.

Problem is the current interface sucks. The only thing we have is resteems, which are discouraged due to the UI, and Trending/Hot/Promoted. There's not even a "Trending Among Those You Follow". How are you expected to find good posts? Just stumble upon them? I know there aren't good posts in Trending. It just makes me sick to look at it.

Basically, this place isn't actually built to encourage the behavior we're supposed to be doing. Steemit is holding Steem back.

I'm gonna keep giving you shit for the fun of it, because you do have a tendency to go long occasionally on posts and post a fuckton, but I don't think you post shit.

I actually don't mind it, I am not made of glass ;)

I don't feel right buying upvotes, even for the posts I think are worth far more, because I feel like it's going against the social contract of this place.

I don't either but, I am trying to be more understanding of those who do as there is a future here that we might not see and I don't want people to miss out, yourself included.

Problem is the current interface sucks.

I have to say, this is one of the best interfaces I have used. The ease at which one can navigate, the simplicity of design, the smooth operations.... and all bug-free! :P

The interface is alright as far as looks. Very basic. But we need more, because it's Steem. We need tools to help curate, and we need to be able to resteem without fear that it will get in the way of our own posts.

Yeah, I agree. A couple filters, a couple options and the place is much easier. I know they don't want to develop Steemit too much and push it to other interfaces but, this is still the core front end.

Hey Taraz. I hope all is well with you and the family mate.

You know by now what I think of you and your work so I won't blow any more smoke up your arse. I don't agree with paying for a delegation in general and think those who have the SP to spare in exchange for cash should instead be sparing it for free to maximize everyones opportunities and profits but this is in a perfect world of course, which we've both learned in our time here, that this certainly is not. If it was then you wouldn't have to pay for a delegation, it would be a given. I'm surprised you haven't been given a big delegation already.

Having said I don't agree with buying delegations, I do think what you're doing with yours is admirable and your honesty in explaining the situation is also. I know you don't agree with how things are at the moment and what steemit's becoming but I realise if you weren't doing what you're doing your positive and thoughtful messages wouldn't be reaching the audience that they are. It's a tough one and I remember how much you struggled over it at the time but I definitely think you made the right choice mate.

You know by now what I think of you and your work so I won't blow any more smoke up your arse.

Appreciated :)

I'm surprised you haven't been given a big delegation already.

Nor a small one. I don't know what I would do with one, perhaps it would obligate me in a different way that might not be positive. I don't think so though.

Having said I don't agree with buying delegations, I do think what you're doing with yours is admirable and your honesty in explaining the situation is also.

If you remember when I bought, I posted that there is no way for a normal person to pay it off without complete self-voting (or near to). At the time, I knew I could cover the price as I was getting decent support then. Just after getting the delegation, SBD spiked hard so it became very cheap to maintain so I chose to share most of it. It is harder now but still, many more than myself benefits so I keep it. Yet, human nature is as it is and for the most part, delegations aren't used well, even the free ones.

Such a long post, I already forget the half of it, note to myself, I should study math. I didn't get the part how much you pay for sp how much you get in return etc. But in general I was another one who will suggest you focus on your account, you can't even compare yourself with haejin while you are creating something to read, he's gaming the system like you said.

being a useful member of the community.

Is it really that important? If Code is Law and if they fix it someday, nobody will turn back and thank to you. I know a few people like you, try to do it the right way and I'm suggesting the same thing to them as well. Just play the game as everyone, if the code will be fixed you will be able to continue as you were right now. If not you would be tripled your account and became more useful for the community if you want it at that point.

The code is law but it doesn't have to come from government 'STINC', we have great developers around who can build youtube, twitch by themselves. I believe our salvation relies on those developers and their ethics. We just need more communication, more communities. Little, little communities everywhere and let those communities create their own little heajins :) I don't know, that's how I expect to happen in near future.

*if you plan to upvote this comment, please just go and upvote yourself with that weight. I'm just glad to have a simple reply.

It will get to a stage where I will adjust again (as everyone should) but it is a difficult process as there is so much value if... everyone just did what I said. ;)

There are a lot of technologies to come that will both help and hurt Steem but I hope that overall, the community aspect will be a driving force in steering it forward. Let's see.

I upvote comments of value as often as I can which is pretty often :D

This is the phrase I liked the most, it really nails it:

This makes those who don't game the system fools, those that do the winners of a sinking ship.

code is law and the system is what it is...

I personally only use smartmarket and I would say that the part that is given back to the community is a bit higher there but it is still a vote selling system. I try to read as much as possible and curate manually as well.

So for me I am in both camps, using a system but not in my opinion abusing it.

But that is why I think Ned seems to be distancing himself of what is going on here on the blogging end, has mentioned the "issues" and that means he hopes that SMT will be a game changer that will nullify the current problems

Yeah I don't know and to each there own. At the moment, I am not comfortable with any of the current bidbot systems and less so with some of their operators through discussions. Perhaps there will come a better option that will both reward decent authors and still be suitable for a delegator. I can't see myself buying votes but, delegating to the right bot may be an option one day.

I hope SMTs are a game changer and I hope what changes is the gaming of the system. It would be nice to see what this place would be without all the maximization of individuals. But, that can be said of the whole world... we are just no better, despite the rhetoric.

well, we are the world, maybe a small slice of it but a true representation of it.

now to the request of the day. I can see on your witness voting list that you still have wackou on there. Since he is no longer functional would you mind swapping him out and giving the new kid on the block (us, lol) a chance? we are running @swisswitness
thanks in advance for checking

Screen Shot 2018-05-07 at 23.24.28.png

I will have a look into it. I didn't know wackou was not functioning, thanks.

hey, I saw you cleaned up your list a bit... what would a small witness like ours have to do to earn your vote since you are on 27 now?
you can use steemconnect now to vote if you want to
https://steemconnect.com/sign/account-witness-vote?witness=swisswitness&approve=1

Nothing is free indeed. Freedom is just a trap. You cannot post what you really want. You can choose not to post though. You can choose to interact or not. You are free to do things but on a limited basis.

I use bid bots just to console myself that at least my post is worth something. I have said this before and I think I will keep repeating it to same posts with the same thoughts that I made an effort to post something and then make an effort to pay for it and enjoy the payment crumbs I receive from it which is I am grateful for. Who am I to complain? Are all contents really curated? Curation is subjective just like photography. We like what we like based and sometimes we base choices on the rules that were given.

End delegation to force whales to go find content to get curation rewards for ROI, then content matters a bit more ;)

"Code = law" blindess is indeed that, I can do what I want as long as the code allows it... I've dealt with that since I started getting flagged last year... it's lame :/

Steem is not like a regular economy, nothing we've seen before. The regular economic methodologies and analogies to it make Steem sound so scammy lol :P

End delegation to force whales to go find content to get curation rewards for ROI, then content matters a bit more ;)

This would do a lot, especially since some of the favoured apps use theirs badly anyway.

Steem is not like a regular economy, nothing we've seen before. The regular economic methodologies and analogies to it make Steem sound so scammy lol :P

Yeah, regular economics don't seem to work anywhere at the moment. The problem is that for this place to be something, people have to stop maximizing themselves and start understanding community.

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