Steem-Monster Daily Rewards Are Too High / Suggested Changes !
Yes, you read the title right. While I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion its one I believe to be true. The recent Steem-Monsters update post has stirred up some negativity and debates (Mainly due to the rewards cuts). Below is my proposal for a more fair system.
Its a very simple system that rewards more to the bottom players then the purposed changes do and takes away the way too large amount of 20 Free cards a day for those at the top. Some levels go unchanged. I also think its important to note that the free rewards cards is a privilege the founders have provided us not something that is gntd to us with our SM purchase of a starter pack or any other investment we made into the SM system.
Its a fairly simple system that rewards one extra rewards card for every league you climb. Even the above system is a little too generous imo.
Starting at 1 free rewards card is fair but ending with giving 20 free is too big of a discrepancy. There is already enough incentives for champion level players. They get to fight for the top ten league prize. In the past this prize has been a reward of 300 SBD or Booster packs split between them + they get the highest amount end of league rewards (As they should).
Something needs to be geared towards the lower level players. I say all this as a player that can reach the champion levels. Lets give something to those who play in the smaller leagues instead of gearing the system too much in the opposite direction. Lets not make the same mistakes that Steemit is currently making.
Disclaimer: This is not an attack on Steem-Monsters. Its amazing what they have accomplished thus far in a relatively short time span. I am in the SM discord channel regularly and see all the hard work the Devs (Founders) and team put in.
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What is steemmonsters ?
Steem-Monsters is a digital card game created by @aggroed and @yabapmatt. Early game release has launched and prizes are already up for grabs. Some of the cards in this game have already sold for upwards of $3000. Prize Money tournaments have started and thousands of dollars in Steem already given out. If you haven't yet check out Steem-Monsters by clicking here. You can sign into the official site using your Steem details.
It takes courage to tell the truth when your opinion is not popular. I recognize it and commend you for your point here @rentmoney. I also like that you give a suggestion that you think is fair.
You are right that people are going to be turned off... they already are. Last season I had at least a dozen decks quit playing for FREE due to that cut. I shutter to think what will happen in a few days after they see the new rewards system.
The problem people don't realize is this is a solution to weaken the bots overall influence, yet what it really does is weaken the human players. While it might help for a couple days or weeks, what it is really doing is taking out human players that say "f' it, these bots are no fun AND I get no reward". Its happening already... such a shame and so unnecessary.
These Mavericks have some good ones and bad ones (why don't the good ones stop their buddies that build all those destructive bots that are raping everyone?)... But more importantly, they have done Aggy and Matt a disservice, and forced a split between the rich and poor... bots and humans... basically the same issues as people have with steemit... By focusing on THEIR own pocketbooks, they have turned their short-term worries for a return into a realization that this is a "pay for play" system. SM had to move to appease the big boys and now we see the repercussions and the ripples.
I applaud you very much for standing up for what you know is right, and we all know deep down that your points are valid and make sense.
I have tons of faith in Matt as a person, and think both he and Aggy are trying to appease everyone right now and learning day by day. I am holding my cards purchased (at this point) because I think they will reach a crossroads where they get to make the right decision again. The potential is huge and this is just a small bump on the learning curve and hopefully the pain will teach in the process!
Thanks for taking the time to type out such a thoughtful response. I argued against bots countless times as well. Its like beating my head against a wall trying to get some to see how they are not good for the ecosystem as a whole. Bots simply (rightfully or not) have a bad stigma attached to them and are not worth the headache of having them around. The average player hears the word bot and their mind automatically gravitates to, I'm being cheated. This is not a thought we want them to have.
I can see the founders and team work hard and I also have faith they will find the right balance. They implemented great changes to fight them in the past and they are always considering the complaints and suggestions of the players. Hopefully they take a good look at the new system they are planning on releasing and re-consider/re-work the changes.
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I disagree. I discussed with rentmoney on Discord and it basically came down to this:
Rentmoney says:
Pizzachain says: 20 cards is perfectly fine for multiple reasons:
Whilst champion I is really for the best players, using the best cards. It's really hard to get there, even for people who have a fully maxed deck. As you see in the picture below, there's really just a couple of people in Champion I:
Only 6 players are in Champion I at the moment!
So the 20:1 ratio really only counts for the extreme cases: The really good players with (close to) maxed decks vs the really bad/new players with small level 1 decks.
TL;DR -- Even with level 1 cards and not too much skills, you can easily get to silver. Champion I, however, is really only for the best few players. The 20:1 ratio is therefor a really extreme comparison between the most skillfull players with the best decks vs the worst/newest players with the worst decks.
How many are in the league is irrelevant. Rewards were reduced everywhere with the smallest of reductions at top. I agree with reduced rewards but they at least should of been equal across the board. If anything the reduction should of been less at the lower/mid levels and more at the top.
I am going to tell you something that you are not going to like and likely dismiss as, " this isn't poker " but the poker and other gambling related industries figured out and solved some of these same issues SM is having.
Poker/other gambling clients use to give out lots of kickback to their highest paying customers. This has been reduced drastically due to the fact that the highest paying customers aren't the people who need the most rewards. Percentage wise lower level players should be getting more as to keep them active in the game and give them the feeling of winning. This creates positive moral and motivation for lower level players to move up the ranks and continue playing the game, which is very important for the over all health of any game and in the long run helps those of us that have invested.
Interesting... Isn't that exactly what is already happening? Lower players get a much higher percentage relative to their collection, than high players get.
Again, the only arguments you're using are: "How many are in the league is irrelevant" and "Rewards were reduced everywhere", which were both, whether you like it or not, already countered in the discord. But you're blatantly ignoring that fact, which makes it quite annoying to discuss this matter with you. You're expecting the other side to be convinced of your point, but you aren't open to be convinced by others.
Now you're bringing up the poker/other gambling clients argument again. However, you guessed my response almost perfectly right: This ain't fucking poker. Additionally, I got no idea how Poker/other gambling clients handle high-paying customers vs low paying customers and how it all works exactly.
But if it works so great in Poker/other gambling clients, why can't you give any good arguments for why it would work well here? Of course, you say it works well in Poker, but you don't say why. You only say that it does, which is quite annoying to verify.
No, what currently is going on is the guys at the top are getting too much of the rewards. A 20 - 1 ratio is too big .... They also get a 30 -1 ratio in end of season rewards.
As pointed out its healthy to give more to the lower level players as it keeps them around and keeps them motivated to keep climbing to higher ranks. In return they are more likely to spend their funds on the game thus helping the whole games ecosystem.
You did not counter my arguments, you simply gave your opinion in which I and many others do not agree with. I am fully opened to be convinced but you have yet to accomplish that.
You make blanket statements like, this isn't poker while not understanding how both are very similar to each other. If you don't understand the poker industry or its history perhaps you should take a more subtle approach when speaking of things you have little knowledge on.
I have provided you with my points and arguments but you seem to not want to accept them. Which is fine ... I respect your opinion but I don't agree with it. All one needs to do is go read the most recent update post to see the majority of the community doesn't like the changes. If cuts were even across the board then it wouldn't of been nearly as bad and something I could support but as is, I view the cuts as unfair to the little guy.
Very similar proposal I have posted a month ago. Not much feedback, none from founders. You have my vote.
It is a bummer sometimes to see how much more the top investors get but most of them put in much more money that I into the game. The one thing I would add is most of these cards become very cheap on the market. That is a benefit for new players. Really I feel it is okay just cause of the massive numbers of cards you need to max out a common. Also the way the game is set up if you play a lot you can make it to champion with a level 5 summoner deck. I have a done it with my a lot account. Cause the really high guys grind up to a ranking so high you don’t play them anymore.
Posted using Partiko iOS
The visual affect of seeing players earning 20 cards while only earning 1 yourself is enough to turn people away. As noted in my post I think 1 is a fair number to start at but 20 is way to high to be given out on a daily base.
Disagreed. It's a motivation for the new guys to work their way up.
The top 10 rewards offered / 15 daily free cards + end league rewards would be more then enough of a motivation.
As is lower level guys see the top getting 20 and it causes negative moral.
Edit : How are you getting SBI to vote on yoru topic right away ? From my understanding @steembasicincome votes are reserved for comments that already have votes on them and only for ones that have less then the dust threshold just before post payout.
Double Edit : My statement about how SBI works is wrong. But it still seems to be broken since from my understanding they are only suppose to vote on posts.
No, since it's much easier to go from bronze III to Bronze II, than to go from Champion II to Champion I. And yes, that's actually. Additionally, one also has to win with the right splinter in Champion I 5 times to get the 20 reward cards, which is MUCH harder to do there than in Bronze.
It would immediately motivate everyone to start using their alts again to protect their investment. 20 cards is perfectly fine as I showed.
As I said earlier, Bronze is a starter league/learning phase. It's for the players who don't know how to play yet. Once you learn how to play, you can enter the more competitive leagues at silver and go higher.
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And I have no idea bout the SBI thing... I didn't even know they upvoted comments :P
I don't agree and the negative responses to the changes seem to echo the same sentiment as mine.
15 Free cards / End of League Prizes and Top 10 Prizes is more then enough to motivate.
SBI
Interesting : We need to pay into SBI in order to get upvotes from it and normally they don't upvote until day 6 of comment creation. All three of your comments in this topic have been upvoted by an SBI bot almost instantly. Looks like the SBI bot is broken.
The negative responses come from a thing I now officially call the "Pizza-effect". Everytime you bake a pizza, no matter how good it is, there's gonna be people who think of it as bad and those will often make that very obvious by yelling ARGH, WHAT A DISGUSTING ABOMINATION TO THE ITALIAN KITCHEN! Now the people who think of it as good may come to you and say "OMG, that's such a good pizza", but most people will remain silent about it.
The same is happening here, with almost every change. There's people who like the changes SM makes and there's people who don't like it. The people who don't like it start responding en masse, whilst the people who are happy with the changes don't feel the need to go tell everyone how good those changes are.
I've been complaining about many changes too, don't get me wrong here and maybe you're on the right side here. However, the argument of "Look how many people reply echoing their negative sentiment towards these changes" is not a good argument to me.
Now is the time to voice our opinions before the game is fully released and before the advertising campaign that is planned starts. If people choose to stay silent that is their choice.
We disagree on this topic but have agreed on others in the past. Debates are healthy .... in the end we all want the same goal and thats for SM to be successful.
Thanks, I think the main issue here is that SM started out with being way too generous so people will be in an uproar anytime the rewards get cut to a more fair system.
I hope steemmonsters doesn't make the same mistakes steemit made. New users are the lifeblood of any community. Need to always be growing user base. ALWAYS
Thanks for stopping by and voicing your opinion.
Hi @rentmoney I agree with you that the Reward Cards are handed out to generously. I don't know exactly the timeline and player base numbers that are needed to calculate on how to distribute the new cards evenly over time.
But from my feeling I would agree that the ratio between the lowest reward league Bronze 3 / 5 cards and Champion 1 / 150 cards = Ratio 30:1 is too high. What you are proposing is a Ratio of 15:1 that sounds more fair to me.
Like I said the correct amount of cards, if 1 or 3 or 5 for Bronze 3 league, thats what I really don't know. I hope that @yabapmatt and @aggroed are considering every aspect of there decision in regards to player base, timeline and overall gameplay experience to build a deck for new players.
Thanks for sharing your opinion and adding to the topic at hand.
One thing I don't get is that if it's a decentralized game why steemmonsters community don't decide which decision to take?
Posted using Partiko Android
In fairness to the founders they do take into consideration the suggestions from the players but in any game someone is going to have to make the final decision and choose what to implement or not since allot of peoples opinions and suggestions conflict with each other.
For the record the rewards are ok as they are, for now.
This is not poker, although it will always attract poker players, but that doesn't make it poker.
Your argument stems from a Fixed Mindset. Resources are limited and you need to protect investment. I get it.
But it doesn't matter. Only short term thinkers/investors are worried.
People with a growth mindset don't care because they foresee an abundance of players, scooping up the cards and driving up prices. (And there are many of us)
We aren't there yet, but if we just accept the status quo for a few weeks and let yabapmatt finish off our flagship product, we might find a new light to guide us.
You proved your point about about pack rewards, and now we have none, someone else published some bogus reward values, and now we have less.
I don't see how either will help us to attract new players.
Maybe investors will come but I'd rather have players who love the game than fat wallets who will whine the moment their investment is heading south.
The moment this becomes more about investment than the game, I'm out.
The cards are limited, so when you attract enough new players who want to level up, basic economics suggest the prices will rise.
You are a smart guy and I'd love to hear your thoughts on how we can grow the user base.
Ping me if you ever write such a post and I'll be sure to read it.
When you say the rewards are ok as they are do you mean the current system or the one that will be implemented at the end of this season in the next few hours ?
I agree this is not poker but we have to form our opinions based on something. SM model very closely relates to pokers. The same issues have come up in both .... its logical to think the same solution can be applied to both.
I believe you are mistaken about who is worried. I am in it for the long haul. To say I am worried is a stretch but I do see the unfairness of the recent cut backs and feel as I should voice my opinion on it just as I voiced my opinion and helped to change the fact that too many Beta packs were handed out for free. Introducing the rewards cards as an alternative was a great decision.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
As for how I think we can drive the player base.
I am pretty sure that you have to invest 200x to reach champion I, compared to bronze. So maybe 20x is too small?
The few can't keep taking and expect the many to stick around. I agree the ones at the top need to get more rewards. And they do and will. They will get the better / higher paying tournaments. THey get to fight for the top 10 league prize. They get a 30 - 1 ratio in league ending rewards cards. Something needs to be tilted in the opposite direction to help newbies.
Thing is... The few aren't taking. The many are!
The few top players who actually get the 20 reward cards per day, are both really skilled and invested a lot into SteemMonsters to get the decks they currently have! They've not invested a couple times more than the newbies, they've invested litterally tens to hundreds of times more than the newbies...
And even the newbies, with just the starterpack, can get into silver III, Silver II and Silver I, depending on their skill. Using the reward cards they obtain everyday through completing quests, they can then rise further in the rankings and even enter gold fairly quickly. The 20:1 ratio for daily quests is not really relevant, except for extreme cases. And the 30:1 ratio is even more irrelevant, since it only counts for bronze I members, which is really only the newest players who don't yet know how to play and who don't have any decent cards. And even they will probably rise further quite quickly.
I completely agree on that! Even with just the starterpack cards, one can easily get into silver if they know how to play and using the reward cards they get, they can grow into higher silver leagues and even gold, pretty rapidly... And that's just the starterpack investment!
I Haven’t got a reward card yet,
I Can't open current battle,
My cards are all sent by friends,
It seems that you can't play without opening a new card bag.
You have zero summoners to summon these only two monsters, thus you cannot join a battle.
Everyone needs to buy the starter pack ($10) before they can play the game.
You can trade / buy and collect without purchase.
understanding, thank you very much