Some thoughts on multiaccounting in Steem Monsters and online poker.

in #steemmonsters5 years ago

It's been an interesting few days for discussion of Steem Monsters, with posts on potential multi-accounting strategies by holoz0r and nealmcspadden. But what caught my attention today was a comment by rentmoney on holoz0r's post.

I agree its too easy to farm cards. I come from a poker back ground where its frowned upon to have two accounts on the same online platform. If caught you run the chance of losing both accounts and what was inside them. Once I found out its not frowned upon and to an extent expected to do in the SM game types I easily seen the loop whole you have addressed in this topic.


If I remember right from previous discussions, @rentmoney came to online poker somewhat later than I did. When I started, in 2004, multiaccounting was accepted and expected in much the same way it is on Steem Monsters now. You were expected not to play two accounts at the same time, but having more than one account on the same system was something every serious player did, in order to get maximum value from promotions.

You could think of online poker skins as much like the Steem front ends now, except that each one operated its own account system. So Party Poker and Empire Poker and Multipoker all fed players into the same set of tables, but as a serious player you would have an account on each of them. You'd do the monthly play bonuses on Party and Empire, where the ROI was ridiculous in much the same way that the above posts describe for Steem Monsters, and then you would switch over to Multi and play for a percentage of your fees back for the rest of the month.

This worked pretty well for a few years. The sites had their software set up so that you could only run one of them at a time on the same computer, and Multipoker in particular increased the cap in the number of tables you could play about as fast as players were increasing their abilities. Around the end of this period 16-tabling was becoming pretty common, but we weren't into the 60-table era yet.

But while that worked pretty well for cash game players, eventually some tournament players figured out that by using multiple computers they could enter the same tournament multiple times, thus magnifying their edge over the rest of the field and making them much more likely to win. That led to the beginning of cracking down on having multiple accounts on the same system.

Later some high-stakes players used secondary accounts to pretend they were different people and disguise their stats when playing against familiar opponents, which provoked a fairly significant amount of philosophical conflict in the industry, and led to some widely variant solutions, from attempts to aggressively police one player per account rules to offering fully anonymous tables.

Currently multi-accounting is discouraged almost everywhere by active security teams who can impose harsh punishments - account cancellation and loss of funds. One of the means for this is making cashouts difficult and requiring significant identity verification for them. Cryptocurrency sites have struggled with the balance between needing those systems and valuing privacy and anonymity, and the environment we've ended up with is one where traffic has remained on the traditional sites but they will take cryptocurrency deposits and convert them to fiat balances, often with significant fees and know your customer requirements.


Multiaccount.png

So what can we learn from this about Steem Monsters?

Steem Monsters is more thoroughly based in the decentralized and anonymous value system of cryptocurrency enthusiasts, and as such the solutions of poker sites aren't readily available. There's currently no mechanism to ban accounts and seize cards, or to implement know your customer methods to verify identities and limit accounts to one per person.

It's unclear whether any of this is necessarily a problem, or if it is what size of a problem it would be. But any attempt to solve it must either come from within that value system or step back and re-evaluate it wholesale.

@holoz0r's theory of sealed-deck tournaments has a lot of appeal, but runs into another problem online poker has faced: gambling regulation. Steem Monsters has so far dodged this by making sure none of their prizes come with a risk, but any tournament with both a fee and a prize is immediately a legal headache in many jurisdictions.

It's a quandary, and one for which I don't have any solutions to offer. One observation I have is that part of what makes the ROI so high is that losses are essentially meaningless; play enough times and you can get any team to ten wins for the daily quest. (As I write this my mediocre Life team is 4 and 23.) Be persistent enough with a maxed team and you'll hit the highest league rewards purely on the inflationary nature of Elo rankings. If somehow losses made the rewards less likely or less rewarding, that might go a long way to addressing at least part of the issue.

Beyond that, maybe a little perspective of poker history and how a different community has dealt with this problem, even if it's one with a very different set of core values, might be useful to someone else's thinking.

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I played Steemmonsters for a while but did not get hooked. Seemed very pay2win for my taste. In Hearthstone for example, there is no problem with multiple accounts because there is NO TRADE between players. Can this apply to SM? I don't think so, the model favors trade: you pay a lot, you get the best cards, you win a lot; pay2win.

Unless things changed since I played SM last, in which case, I'm sorry :)

Oh, it's definitely pay-to-win. But it's a CCG, not a free-to-play game. It's built to be pay-to-win. The question is just whether you can win enough to make back what you paid.

I imagine one means of solving the seasonal “pack farming” is simply to cap the number of winners in each tier so that another team moving up pushes someone out. Rather than scores determining rankings, it should be places. Top 10 are champion 1, 11-50 are champion 2, 51-150 are champion 3, 151-300 are Diamond 1, etc.

I could be wrong, but unless someone was very dominant/consistent... they’d be at risk of knocking their own teams down in the rankings as they work others up. Right now, the fact that you get the rewards of the highest level achieved is too generous when combined with the fact that levels are set scores rather than set places or percentiles.

That would make a difference as the main thing separating the top couple hundred places is number of times played. So it would essentially wipe out the ability to move your cards and get to the top level, since you'd be passed by all the people who just played one account the whole time.

I am very well aware of skins. They still exist today on certain networks but are not as abundant. As you pointed out sites have ways to deal with not allowing two skins or two clients on the same network to be opened at the same time thus stopping MOST from doing it. But as with everything there are several ways around that in which I won't mention. I use to be fairly deep into the poker world with owning and MOD forums and being in back ends of the poker sites themselves.

To an extent SM has implemented this as well. For anyone who has tried to open their account in a second window they will run into some minor problems such as in the original window you opened your saved team list is empty and will stay that way after each battle until you refresh the page.

The merge network use to be my favorite. Back in the day they had a promotion where you could make a " first time deposit " of $10 and be entered into fourteen $500 freerolls. This network had well over a dozen skins .... and likely way more then that.

To further expand on my opinion on multi-accounts on SM..... I think today double accounts are needed as they help with making sure games are steady available in our smallish player base. However we 100 % at some point need to move away from allowing multi-accounts as the game won't survive or at the very least become stagnant if someone with deep pockets can afford the best team multiple times over and is allowed to take all the top rewards. I think bots are a bigger issue atm .... But that is another discussion ....

While our points are similar our opinions vary slightly. I think the poker community and the SM community have very similar values. I believe this will be more apparent once SM player base grows bigger. In fact I think that SM should copy the poker model with their user interface. Have a lobby with Sit N Go SM games ..... tournaments ..... have a support email and employees filtering the emails and addressing questions ... forwarding the important ones to the higher ups. ..... its all possible and proven model that works.

I think the poker community and the SM community have very similar values.

While this may be true in the broad sense, I see a big hangup in how casually poker players take confiscation of funds by centralized authority. And without that, how you disallow multi-accounting and other potentially undesirable behaviors is beyond me. Poker sites haven't been able to stop multi-accounting, or botting, or anything else, they just make it expensive enough that the problem is kept small.

Have a lobby with Sit N Go SM games ..... tournaments ..... have a support email and employees filtering the emails and addressing questions

Paid for how? No rake, because no gambling. Can they pay a support staff purely based on pack sales? Especially when they're committing large chunks of those resources to prizes?

Similarly, how does a Sit & Go work without buyins? You could have on-demand small tournaments, I guess, but it's not at all the same.

While this may be true in the broad sense, I see a big hangup in how casually poker players take confiscation of funds by centralized authority. And without that, how you disallow multi-accounting and other potentially undesirable behaviors is beyond me. Poker sites haven't been able to stop multi-accounting, or botting, or anything else, they just make it expensive enough that the problem is kept small.

We are on the blockchain ..... Everything is visible. I am sure we could catch a good number of multi-accounting players if we wanted. Not 100 % as that would be impossible regardless of what system is used to stop it. This goes back to having a team specifically for doing just that. Plus the community itself would help police just like the poker community does.

When the GFL got stole yesterday the whole situation is almost a mirrored image of what happens and has happened multiple times in the poker community. Someone said during the witch hunt that individual cards can be rendered useless. If this is the case ....... limiting multi-accounters won't be hard to do and can be done in a similar fashion as the poker community does. With the key difference of being .... you destroy their cards instead of their log in account. This is only one way of many that can be thought up.

Paid for how? No rake, because no gambling. Can they pay a support staff purely based on pack sales? Especially when they're committing large chunks of those resources to prizes?

Similarly, how does a Sit & Go work without buyins? You could have on-demand small tournaments, I guess, but it's not at all the same.

Yes No Rake ..... for example .... A SNG would work like the below.

10 Man Sit And Go :
Buy in : 1 Alpha Card
Seats : 10 ( Starts when full )
Prize :
First : 5 Alpha cards
Second : 3 Alpha cards
Third : 2 Alpha cards

Yes I think they can pay a support staff. Not only do I think they can / will be able to but I think it is going to be a necessity at some point if SM keeps growing.

$600,000 In Alpha packs sold + thousands in Beta ..... + Kickstarter and starter packs. I would say they have enough for an official support email person. As a poker player yourself you know these support emails are not the best and mostly send copy and paste responses. I bet SM could even find someone willing to do it for some packs or recognition at first with the promise it turns into a paid gig if they grow big enough.

I think " rake " would work also. Burn X Beta card to enter a tournament worth $100 ..... Burn X Alpha card to enter a tournament worth $250 and so on or ..... send x card to x account to enter this tournament. Governments don't recognize SM cards as currency. Legally ... no gambling will be taking place. Using crypto ( SM cards are crypto ) is how some poker sites can allow US players and avoid gambling laws.

Governments don't recognize SM cards as currency. Legally ... no gambling will be taking place. Using crypto ( SM cards are crypto ) is how some poker sites can allow US players and avoid gambling laws.

Sadly, this isn't true. Trivial example: Bryan Micon was prosecuted for running Seals With Clubs. More generally, for obvious reasons gambling laws don't limit their reach to only things that are currency, or they'd be completely ineffective.

Anything that has a buyin and a prize will end up considered gambling.

Ah yes .. how could I forget about Seals With Clubs. In any case its highly unlikely the government dings us with gambling for using SM cards as rake. Crypto been used to skirt gambling laws for years. But I suppose the risk is still there.

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