Witnesses, please make voting simpler, not more complex. Don't approve HF 20 without some changes.

in #witness-category6 years ago (edited)

Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes. - Charles Goodhart

Apologies for using the witness category tag when I am not a witness.

I am going to post this because on cursory review of the changes they want to implement I just had to give my own opinion. Now I know that it's rather routine in this community to just take what Steemit Inc. hands the witnesses and push the update, but let's think about this for a second.

If there isn't witness push-back now, then I doubt there will be any when the patch drops. I know some of these won't be changed, but these are just my opinions and I'd like to spark a debate around this, and you can come at me bro if you think you have good counter-arguments.

My list of code-related suggestions.

  • Keep n=1. Linear is good. You're just greedy for thinking otherwise.

  • Minute 0 voting should be allowed. Arbitrarily soft-preventing someone from voting on a new post or comment they enjoy is terrible, period.

  • Curation rewards should always be a fixed percentage and independent of the time the vote is cast.

  • Curation rewards should be higher, possibly around 50% or so. Don't encourage or force the largest vested accounts to also spam us with posts. Let them simply vote to generate ROI, to punish human curation less as opposed to self-voting or vote-selling. In fact you could posit that pushing curation up as high as 99% would theoretically price bid-bots out of the market completely and create an environment where monetary rewards for authors are simply small tips instead of the bulk of the rewards pool given out, but this would lock-in the inertia of current voting power rather tremendously. Personally I do see other advantages to this approach, especially as far as making potential post rewards a secondary, milder effect of posting as opposed to being a primary focus of posters.

  • Curation rewards should have identical payout options as author rewards. Do not advantage one over the other with SBD/SP/STEEM payout options unavailable to the other. This is a no-brainer.

  • No increase or decrease in curation rewards based on the voting order. Coming late to the party should not be so terrible for voters if they want to reward an older post.

  • The new sub-15 minute curation pool is garbage. Remove the option to auto-vote on post creation if you're really going to do this, as it's disingenuous to leave it as-is without a huge blinking red disclaimer attached.

Adding burden of knowledge to use a platform is anti-user and anti-investor.

You might be someone who enjoys reading changelogs all day, you might have once upon a time come to Steemit and read for hours a day to get up to speed on how voting mechanics work, you might have done the math yourself on how to maximize curation rewards or adjust your auto-voters to get the most curation back for your SP.

But ask yourself this, nerd, does the average individual (no, not the person aiming to be an influencer or an account-seller on certain sites, an actual average, normal person) have to do any of that to understand what a vote or a like or an upvote does on ANY OTHER SOCIAL MEDIA?

So why the hell should they have to do that here?

Furthermore, what makes you think having elaborate hoops of game-theory that you have to jump through in order to maximize ROI as an investor make the platform attractive to anyone but the nerdiest of nerds? Investors want no-bullshit, hands-off ROI. Sure, maybe there could potentially be something to be said for forcing them to learn at least the basics of the platform in order to profit from it in order to dissuade some from investing, but without strong hands the platform is dead as no one will be there to catch the inflation year after year.

Literal anti-social mechanics built-in to the platform are not good for the platform.

Why does this even need to be said? Do you even want people to use steemit or other dapps, or do you just want to give off the appearance that lots of people use it so you can take a nice healthy dump on new batches of imbeciles whenever you want to sell?

Okay, so I get that Steemit Inc. wants this all to be some freemium bullshit phone game where you have to pay a certain amount to get a vote slider, pay a certain amount to get bandwidth on heavy use days, pay a certain amount to get exposure, and so on. That was the site's intention from its inception, and through that and a million other screw-ups we have the tiny userbase that we have now.

The early distribution process was awful, and so were tons of other things that happened, which is why our current landscape resembles Clash of Clans more than it does Reddit or any other social media it's trying to ape. Except at least in Clash of Clans the devs didn't just gift a few accounts with an insurmountable amount of troops and power that would be carried in perpetuity.

Voting should be simple, it should be a way to reward content the user enjoys. They should not be punished for failing to take on the extra computational load that the code forces onto them before making what should be a simple decision.

"Do I enjoy this content or not?" should be the only thing someone should have to ask themselves while reading a post. Analyzing the content should be the first and foremost burden placed on the user, not analyzing the timing of the vote and potential hindrances to curation, who has or hasn't voted yet, the potential follow-on votes, the user's popularity and average past voters and vote times, and so on.

A user should know beforehand based on their own vote value what their curation amount should be, and how much the author should get. HF 25 better not force us to all brush up on our multi-variable calculus to get the answer.

TL;DR: Want to keep Steemit anti-user? Then push the patch as-is.

The voting system is bad now. The voting system will still be bad after HF 20.

Reducing complexity means just that. It doesn't mean increase the complexity, it doesn't mean change it around so it's about as complex as before, it means lowering it. Making it smaller. Decreasing it.

Requiring a delay on voting to prevent bot votes arguably only matters because you have the already stupid decision to increase curation rewards the earlier you vote on something and based on the size of other votes that come after you. It makes the entire thing a game of finding authors with average post rewards where you can sneak your vote in before other people.

I'm not going to get into why having a forward-facing system that entangles the concepts of "popularity" with money is a terrible idea for social media in the first place, but if we're going to keep it we might as well make the process a bit less onerous to use.

Steemit is already the land of the bots, vote bots, comment bots, me. Make Steemit human again by appealing to humans and how they naturally want to interact. Thank you for your time.

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Voting should be simple, it should be a way to reward content the user enjoys. They should not be punished for failing to take on the extra computational load that the code forces onto them before making what should be a simple decision.

"Do I enjoy this content or not?" should be the only thing someone should have to ask themselves while reading a post. Analyzing the content should be the first and foremost burden placed on the user, not analyzing the timing of the vote and potential hindrances to curation, who has or hasn't voted yet, the potential follow-on votes, the user's popularity and average past voters and vote times, and so on.

Well stated.

Thanks, your analysis of the coming situation is rather spot on as well.

I'm rather new here and I'm still working out bits and pieces of things, so don't slam me too hard.
On your curation percentage idea, I could see bumping it up a bit, but if it were bumped too high fewer people would be creating content and without content the platform is dead.
I also question whether the theory of 99% would get rid of the bid bots. They could simply adjust their approach. Say they lower the fee and do something like this, give your post a $100 upvote for . 5 SBD, which is a 100% increase for the creator, and a crap-ton for the bot owner and investors. They could even offer kickbacks to creators as well.

Just my #twocents take it or leave it

Nah, I'm not one to shit on new people, at least not on steemit or something like social media, especially considering the fact I'm still trying to navigate the platform and learn more about it.

I actually see zero problem with that. Social media on other platforms just put out social currencies as carrots to post content with no monetary rewards at all and people still choose to create content for the sake of creating or other factors, and the majority of users aren't inclined to be content creators at all. Steemit is skewed in terms of its user base and incentive model so we have a ton of creators and less consumers per content created compared to other sites.

That was a not-so-serious suggestion, but you're right bot owners could just match prices and drop them down to near zero and just do volume. Some bots already give 100% + some curation rewards so it would just cut margin across the board. It's really hard to seriously change things in an environment where the initial distribution from day 0 was so top-heavy, but at least some dapps and other projects have some delegation to vote on smaller members otherwise new inflation would really be circulating back to the top.

We really do need more awareness around this. Most users just know that things are broken, so when a solution is presented everyone cheers without understanding the implications.

The biggest problem with steem is it's essentially an inflation war, and in order to win you have to outpace inflation with selfish voting. The economics of social media is all about attention. Network owners make money off the social attention of others. Steem as it is right now is built on the backs of dreamers who are grasping at any alternative to incumbent social media, while a circlejerk of bad whales write the same old story all over again. The dreamers get fooled by crumbs. In order to engage normal users they have to have an effect on the system, otherwise they might as well use REDDIT where their vote actually matters.

In terms of monetary distribution, what is the ratio of minnows/dolphins/whales and how does it change over time? I'd like to get the data on this, but it's pretty bad news if it has continued to trend towards whales instead of building a larger base of minnows. As long as big accounts can accumulate faster than a fair distribution to wide range of smaller accounts, nothing will change with steem at it's core.

As both a user and an investor I can't take much more of this. I'm waiting for fixes and hoping to build, but i'm already looking for better solutions. I'll be sticking with steem for a while longer, but if HF20 is pushed through that will probably mark the beginning of my exit from steem.

Agreed. The fact that the money-making aspect of the site conflates with the purported intention to identify worthwhile content really drags steemit down, and though there are attempts to control what becomes visible on other websites via astroturfing efforts, influencers etc. by corporations on other websites the average user isn't completely stifled like they tend to be here.

https://steemit.com/statistics/@arcange/steemit-statistics-20180704-en

Breaking apart the amount of the pool that goes to different sized users it's quite clear that it's mostly a few of the dapps and communities that give votes to smaller accounts and mask the problem of where new inflation is going, otherwise yes, it would be nearly all self and circular voting between similar-sized accounts. The trend of more SP getting powered down and funds moved out of the system instead of back in hasn't reversed, which also accounts for a slight shift in some of the brackets over time.

Yeah, personally I'm just here because other people are here, I've just been trying to make a handful of trades with the funds I've been gifted so that I can help people however I can, otherwise the changes over time haven't really been my cup of tea.

Make the self-voting impossible

Would mix things up. Many will try to proxy vote themselves though.

You're right but they are doing it already

Yes I know, I'm just saying even more would just do that.

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