Is The Voting System Fair? Find Out For Yourselves!
Big G'DAY to everyone,
Wish to get into a few mind boggling topics here!
Yep, Witness stuff again, but more importantly as the old saying goes "THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE"!
Voting for Witnesses on our Steem blockchain has become a very interesting topic since @shadowspub started the radio show The Witness Chat .
More and more posts can be seen popping up about who, what, how, when and where as far as Witnesses go!
So, to help maintain this momentum and ensure it doesn't die out like what many "Hot Topics" tend to do, here is a look at some facts and figures that should interest ALL Steemians!
First of all to ensure that we have a visual aid, I am going to be using a screen shot from steemreports.com.
Here it is:
What we have here is a chart showing who all voted for whom among the Top 50 witnesses.
To some this may all look a little confusing, so here goes.
On the left are the names of the Witnesses,
Next each of the names is a bar, made up of different colours.
Each of these colours represents one voter.
These votes are ordered highest MV (SP) to lowest MV (SP) with the last light blue portion being all the smaller SP votes.
I have gone to the liberty of typing in some of the numbers for the highest 5 voters and total of the small SP voters.
Why is it in MV (SP)?
Well, when you vote, your vote is weighed by the amount of SP you have. It is calculated in Mega Vests (MV) for the voting system.
Simple enough, "richest to poorest" voters from left to right! Simple as that!
or
"Most influential voters to least influential" from left to right!
Now that I have summed up what we see in the above chart for those who haven't seen this before, I can move on to the ever so lovely topics that we have all been able to see all over the place and read about in the last month or so!
One of our rather interesting and very active witnesses here, known as @sircork was working on a similar chart to the one we see above.
However his efforts were more so aimed at proving something that he and possibly many others suspect and that is collusion among some of the Witnesses.
Now, this is a strong term and none of us want to go around slandering anyone, so this is not going to be my topic here, although he did have some very interesting findings while doing his research of the statistics.
For those of you who are not familiar with the term "Collusion" here is the cold hard definition of it:
Collusion is an agreement between two or more parties, sometimes illegal–but always secretive–to limit open competition by deceiving, misleading, or defrauding others of their legal rights, or to obtain an objective forbidden by law typically by defrauding or gaining an unfair market advantage.
What I wish to touch upon is the following part of that definition: "or gaining an unfair market advantage."
First of all, in order to fully explain it, we here have an option that was voted in by the TOP20 Witnesses, which we call "Proxy Votes".
What that means is that any one of us can give power of attorney aka "Proxy" in this case to anyone else for voting.
Imagine how all the democracies would fail if lets say people could do that, i.e. "I'm voting for all these people I know, because they said I could vote instead of them".
OK, but then again, we don't want to go down that road, or do we?
No, we'll leave that for another time.
Now, I'm not saying that there is "Collusion" happening here, hell if I were to say that then this post would be flagged from top to bottom and I would probably get to be the first person to have a -62 rating next ones name.
What I am going to say is that the so called "Proxy" option allows for collusion.
HOW?
Well, think about it, have a read of the definition above and then think about the options that proxy voting makes possible.
Here is one example:
A group of people get together and proxy one user account that does absolutely nothing on the blockchain, just sits there and serves as a voting tool.
They then use this combined voting power to influence Witnesses for whatever their agenda may be, good or bad.
This may seem rather unethical however it is possible.
Playing devils advocate here:
Well can't they do that exact same thing without "Proxy" votes?
YES THEY CAN.
and the funny part is that the "proxy" system has just made it a lot easier to see, that is all. That is if it is happening!
You can all go to the web page listed above with this chart, check out the names of the voters listed.
then after that go to a grand old page made by our fellow witness @drakos called Steemian.info and check to see who is voting for whom and who has proxy voting for whom.
Just sharing thoughts here, hoping to get people thinking for themselves on this very interesting topic!
When I was looking into it all I concentrated on the following part of the above chart:
Again, I am not accusing anyone of anything, just putting into question the idea of "Proxy" voting and what good it does. That is how it can be used to see potential collusion if it exists.
The next topic that I wish to touch upon is something that I have touched on before.
DEAD VOTERS!
Once again, an account that exists and that isn't being used is definitely DEAD.
Now, I won't dwell on the concept that Proof of Brain should be the core foundation to everything here, as it was argued that "investors" who use our wallet option and the safety of putting crypto (Steem) into Steem Power should have a right to vote.
Sure, just like in any free and democratic country out there, along comes a foreign investor who contributes nothing to the country and doesn't even live there, opens up a bank account and puts their money in there, yeah, they all have the right to vote.
Don't they?
Never mind, we'll leave that for another time too, as the topic I wish to touch upon is those "Dead voters".
Who by the way could very well be dead. After all they haven't even logged into their accounts for months, some even over a year now!
Yet they cast their votes and their votes are valid for infinity.
These are predominantly the ones shown in the light blue colour at the end of each chart.
Notice the value of their votes!
Yes, they are equal to and above that of the proxy vote that is in dark blue at the beginning of the chart (top left).
Now, I've spent a few days and hours looking into these voters.
Going to the site Steemian.info clicking on the little man like icon next to the Witness names, which opens up ALL the voters for the Witness it is next to and then scrolled down to the bottom of it and started opening up those accounts.
Man was that fun!
Well, guess what!
Many of these voters could very well be six foot under for all we know!
Haven't done anything for months!
Yet their votes are still valid and shall be for eternity!
Which again, confirms the need for a fair and reasonable time frame which each vote should be valid for. Considering the dynamics of our platform and all the new 3rd party apps coming on board, I would dare say that 120 days (4 months) is a maximum that any vote cast should be valid for.
With a little pop-up screen that shows up on our screen every time we log in within the last 30 days of that 120 days reminding us that our vote for Witness "@username" is about to expire soon.
Now, one of the people who were on the last radio Witness Chat claimed that "this can't be done".
I called out that claim by it's rightful name "BS" and stand by it.
Now, some smarty pants (don't wish to be crude here and call anyone an asshole) may respond to that and say "Well WHY DON'T YOU DO IT THEN".
Well I'm not the one making over quarter of a million dollars per year here!
Each and everyone of us can invest proportionally to our earnings.
That would be my response. If I was making a quarter mil per year here as a Witness, man, I would gladly pay a professional to fix the crap others have messed up!
oooops, maybe this isn't messed up, maybe it's like that because some people want it to be like that!
IDK, it kind of brings me back to that key applicable point in the definition of "collusion":
"or gaining an unfair market advantage."
Which now brings me to the third topic that I would like to address here:
The Witness Voting Page!
You know, the one on Steemit, which looks like this:
Nothing wrong with this page at first glance is there!
Except for the fact that we have many more active witnesses than these 50 listed.
&
The fact that it lists inactive witnesses too, yet one can't tell the difference.
Imagine going to a vote and not getting a full list of candidates, only the Top50, the other hundred or so, well, too bad so sad, you have to look them up elsewhere, because on your ballot list are only a handful of candidates.
Really fair isn't it!
Doesn't give anyone an 'unfair advantage' does it!
Another thing that this list doesn't show is the amount of people voting and unvoting a witness.
You, know like an arrow with a % figure of rise and fall per day.
If you are not sure what I am talking about, well, when you look at the crypto markets, you see a little green arrrow up and a green % figure showing how much a crypto has gained in that second or two or what ever, or a red arrow down and a % figure showing how much it went down!
i.e.
Ohhh yeah sure, now someone might say "CAN'T BE DONE" and again I'll have to call it out for what it is "BS"
NO BULL, THERE ARE THOSE WHO WILL SAY "IT CAN'T BE DONE!"
Talk about "Mushroom politics" = Feed the people sh#t and keep them in the dark!
Yet we have a page put together called Steemian.info that proves IT CAN BE DONE!
We have numerous exchanges and crypto markets already out there, some even on their own blockchains, that show rise and fall of percentages on hundreds of various line items by the second.
& THEN WE HEAR THAT IT CAN'T BE DONE!
All this by those who are right up there and it all kind of gets me back to that one relevant key part of the definition of "collusion":
"or gaining an unfair market advantage."
Ohhh well, once gain, enough food for thought in one post.
Will leave everyone here with these few facts and figures, gave you the links to check on it all yourselves so don't blame me for the conclusions you come up with after looking into it.
Till the next time,
STEEM ON.
Yours truly,
I really liked how you wrote this post. the angle you took.
getting people to THINK, be aware is always a good thing! I know after @shadowspubs first witness meeting my eyes were opened very wide on how much I didn't understand and knew if I was going to be here longer it was time to start learning more on how everything worked!
Great Job!! Thank you for this post!
Is there some central place where all witness candidates are putting out there "position statements?"
Also, how often are new witnesses elected?
Sorry...10-day newb here, still trying to wrap my mind around how change (especially important hard forks) happen here.
TIA...and thanks for all the baove info.
To view the initial witness announcement of each witness, head to https://steemians.info and click on the link icon for the witness.
For update reports, check these tags:
#witness-category
#witness-update
Anyone can become a witness, just need how to setup a Linux server, install the witness software and start their campaign to collect witness votes from the community. Each user can vote up to 30 witnesses. Votes are valid for infinity but are not necessarily permanent, you can change your mind at anytime and remove a vote and give a new one.
Very helpful. Thanks!
Hey @jackmiller @quochuy could you reach out to me on discord about the Witness Communication Assembly. Thanks.
First I've heard of it!
Yeah, I responded to @quochuy below. I'm not sure anyone else is proactively informing anyone of the project yet. I've only been trying to reach people I vote for, have voted for, might vote for, etc. hoping they get their voice heard also.
Just went and read about it. My question is, why Discord? If the objective is “improving witness to end user relations, communication and transparent” then I think we should do it right here on the blockchain so that all discussions are publicly available to all users on Steem and outside of Steem not just on a centralised chat server which can only be accessed if you know the chat server address and create an account.
That makes total sense. It's not my project though. @ScottCBusiness is a new witness (and friend of mine from Facebook.) The initiative is part of his platform. I'm just helping with the technical stuff because I know how to and have time. I'm sure he'd value your feedback immensely.
I'm independently doing a witness interview project down the road once my studio is better equipped. We gave it a home on the same server. And I think he's looking to syndicate some of the blogs here to the server also like Shadowpubs witness open forum, the witness payout reports, each witnesses blogs, then push them as a mash-up to an account.
If I recall from a previous conversation, it's because new users have bandwidth limitations so commenting and participating on Discord removes those limitations. Users here can already sift through piles of information, but it's not really organized nor is there a free messaging feature on the blockchain. And what witness will answer a plankton's memo?
I'm not really sure though. I've been reaching out to witnesses I vote for or have previously voted for to be sure they have an option to represent themselves, if in face his idea takes off.
I’m not fan of the memo chat idea.
I was more thinking making a regular post where users can ask questions in the comments section. I don’t think bandwidth is an issue with the 15 initial SP. And new plankton will get the chance of getting their questions upvoted by the witness.
There are so many discord server already and most of them I’m on are not useful for me because of the issue of timezone. It’s either quiet or I can’t easily find the messages i want. I haven’t made it to shadowpubs witness thing cuz I’m either in bed or in a train to work at the time it’s on.
I’ll give it a try though and see how it goes.
The initial SP delegations are going away with HF20. So thinking ahead, that might not be as easy as it is now. However, I agree about the voting thing. That would be a great idea but I'm not in a position to control his project. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to do both the discord and a steemit account for it.
I hear you about the discord server numbers. I have a whole spreadsheet of them. I experience the same thing being in America and having so many international friends. I imagine they feel the same way about getting in touch with me lol.
Yeah, Idk, I vote for you and I like what you're doing. And since there's already a a bunch of witnesses willing to give it a shot; I would be sad if you were not represented. But of course, that's up to you- I still support you :)
There will be a permanent minimum bandwidth in HF20 which should compensate for the removal of the initial SP delegation.
Lets see how it goes.
That's exactly the issue, and because there is no good communities feature or chat for Steemit we are on Discord. We have seen every other witness project like this is quiet, managed poorly, or abandoned. So we are trying to create something better and maybe get a steem page for it soon too
@omitaylor, in HF20 there will be a permanent minimum bandwidth to compensate for the removal of the SP delegation.
@scottcbusiness, I like the idea, I'm just not sure about Discord, but because of the lack of a better medium, lets see how it goes.
Yeah, as you know, none of this was news to me, except this bit, which was a new idea for me on witness lists...
Another thing that this list doesn't show is the amount of people voting and unvoting a witness.
You, know like an arrow with a % figure of rise and fall per day.
If you are not sure what I am talking about, well, when you look at the crypto markets, you see a little green arrrow up and a green % figure showing how much a crypto has gained in that second or two or what ever, or a red arrow down and a % figure showing how much it went down!
Yeah, I'm gonna tell @Drakos to do that. I'd like to see that even though for most of us, the churn is not so "daily" and so these indicators wont change real fast in most cases, still interesting to see if someone has done something to cause a flurry of downtrend.
Do note that steemdb does show a bar chart of votes over time. Same thing really as an up down witness market volume indicator, just like your crypto/stock/forex markets example.
Yeah, old news to some, yet to many it is still UNKNOWN!
If nothing else, another pimple popping on an elephants behind!
Might cause a second or two of discomfort, but probably won't be noticed and will be forgotten til the next post on these topics comes out!
;)
@jackmiller interesting read as a new minnow to the steemit platform I was totally unaware of most of the bits you mentioned. Thanks for sharing 👍
Would recommend you take a read of the potentials I as an individual see here!
The things we can accomplish are endless, even with the little things that need to be fixed along the way!
STEEM Can Become A World Revolution: We Can Change The World As We Know It!
https://steemit.com/economics/@jackmiller/steem-can-become-a-world-revolution-we-can-change-the-world-as-we-know-it
There is plenty here to think about @jackmiller and it's a lot to digest in one post.
I personally like the proxy feature and I think it forms a cornerstone for a future direct democracy to work. It just makes things a bit easier to manage here and, as you point out, easier to track.
There are a couple of things you mention which would be fairly simple to implement from a software development perspective, like the witness page. It's not hard to have a "Next 50" button like they do everywhere else on the site. A few more helpful indicators and visual aids could do a long way too. What can we do? Lobby Steemit Inc for change, or use a competing front end like busy.org?
Well, as things expand, I can see Steemit being a front end for transparency and not "blogging", but that is a long ways ahead from where we are at the moment.
As for the "food for thought", the question of WHY?
Is what people need to find the answers to, otherwise things will keep going the way they are and minnows will stay minnows and whales will become megamonsters of the deep, while the middle/working class aka Dolphins will get close to extinction!
Proven time and time over!
Incredible all this information, of course I did not know how those votes are determined, and I think that if it is advantageous for some and not for others, it is unfair for those witnesses that if they are active doing their job, would be good that that list of witnesses will be updated.
A distinct lack of top 50 witness replies here. If you speak out and agree with any of the above, then I suspect staying in the top 50 just got a lot harder.
As we know, many are either bid-bot owners or delegates, or both. Trying to peg SBDs to $1 is not in their financial interest.
Imagine paying for DSP with Steem at $1.5 and receiving payments for votes with SBD at $15. They were having it right off last December!
Fear of Loss.
One of the key ingredients in almost everything that people do!
In this case, as you point out, the fact that certain "Witnesses" who are representing their voters out there have not taken any actions to correct what needs to be corrected says more about them and their "politician" like behaviour than what it says for the "voters" who probably are not even aware of these facts.
Funny, there is a saying I heard in a few different versions in my travels and experiences around this world:
"Give a person power to see their true character".
Funny how many of the loudest anti-government protestors out there behave identically to those that they are protesting against when put into the role of a "representative of the people".
Rather sad, isn't it!
It's one thing to use all that one has available to get into a position of power, but when that person gets there, then the real truth comes out into the open as to WHY that person did everything that they did!
Great post. I just wanted to add that I see this as potentially being an issue with EOS as well. The Witnesses on Steem are essentially synonymous with the Block Producers on EOS. I don't see much discussion regarding the differences but here's an article regarding the subject and the question of governance. If Dan doesn't apply the lessons learned from Steem's governance structure to EOS, I'd consider that a let down.
No offense, but I seriously don't like mentioning our competition here, sick and tired of people talking about what EOS could be one day, when we already have it all here on Steem.
Just need to get our act together on some things.
We have in place what the others are only promising!
All good. Just pointing out that similar questions are being asked by some in the EOS community as well. And rightfully so, considering the precedent set on Steem with the current governance structure. I've often said that Steem benefits from having a first mover advantage but that's not enough in the long run. Perhaps your post will compel some necessary improvements, though in this regard the lack of change to date has not been promising.
Will probably have to write a post on this, but all I can say is that "Money Talks" and that is the foundation to all the "issues" and the flock following their shepherd along the way!
They don't want to fix it.
Just like witnesses are supposed to keep SBD pegged to $1.
I would also like to add, any witness that has a bidbot should be removed as a witness.
Well, as for the SBD peg to $1 US, it needs to be stated that the markets have done their thing.
The most that the TOP 20 witnesses can do is to put downward pressure on SBD.
One of the tools available for this is BIAS. However this isn't an outright solution, but it can add a little downward pressure on the SBD price to get it to $1.
Any action that can at this moment put downward pressure on SBD should be considered and if feasible put into practice.
As for the "bidbots" this is an opinion that I have seen out there, but remember, it is a free and open market. Personally I believe that they have contributed to the internal debt situation. They are definitely not the exclusive cause of it.
Believe it or not, they too can be used to put downward pressure on SBD, if they were to be temporarily limited to Steem payments only (for their services) than this would result in many more people selling their SBD on the market and not just a handful of bidbot owners. Hence again, putting downward pressure on SBD, getting it closer to $1.
Once it gets to a $1, reverse conversion of Steem to SBD seems to be a viable long term solution. Again, time will tell, as with everything out there, I don't doubt that some shall try to manipulate the markets if it is possible.
So in all fairness to the TOP20 Witnesses and the topic of pegging SBD to $1, they are not "God" in the system, yet they have not utilized the BIAS option either. So it is a rather painful issue when one looks at it, as HF20 comes closer, so to do the SMTs and potential billions of $. So priorities are at question more than anything else. Not picking on anyone in particular and I am certain that among the TOP20 many are concerned about these issues more so than what may seem to be the case. Again, very tough topic to get into.
But the more people like yourself who bring it up, the better it is for everyone. Sooner or later, something needs to be done about it!
So much on point on this..
Am in sync with you on this one
There are so many options out there, that can be applied, however, to use them one has to think out of the box and be committed to the long term prosperity of everyone here!
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