Consent Makes all the Difference
Recently, I saw this meme about taxation:
The message of the meme is clear and effective. Consent is the difference between voluntary interaction and violence. But the meme applies to more than just taxation.
Taxation is not the only example of the government neglecting to get consent.
Far from it. I was considering making a long list of every government action that is backed by violence or the threat of violence, but that's unnecessary because the truth is simple:
Government IS violence.
Everything government does is backed by violence. Every government decree will be carried out whether or not you consent.
If it isn't backed by violence and threats, it isn't government.
Prove me wrong, I dare you.
~Seth
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"Monopolies are bad unless they are run by corrupt politicians, claim a cut of any transaction I make, and threaten to rob/kidnap/murder me if I violate any of their innumerable byzantine rules! If you disagree with this system, you are a chaos-loving barbarian!"
And there you have it! The logic of most statists.
I can not, because you are not wrong @sethlinson . Keep making such posts :)
Well if there is one thing I can agree on with you anarchos, then that taxation without consent is theft.
It is funny that in German state authority is officially called state violence (Staatsgewalt). For us it is just a given that state is a form of violence :)
Wow, that's pretty crazy. Looks like George Orwell's concept of doublethink has come true in Germany then.
Actually it is not. The state has the monopoly to use violence and as long as he treats his citiziens equal/just, that is OK in the German mind.
I am not a fan of this thinking, I am a Libertarian after all, but i can very well understand it.
Oh yeah, absolutely. I meant that it's crazy that people think assault and violence is normal just because the state commits it.
It is not even that ridiculous in principle. If there were very little and easy to understand rules, that everybody could agree on then it would be OK. Even your Anarchist rules need some sort of enforcement.
If people get denied the right to own the things they made with their own hands, then they should be able to enforce that right and the state should provide an environment, in which this is possible.
Sure, but remember: consent makes all the difference. I won't enforce my rules on someone else if they don't agree on them first.
I would like to ask you some questions, in no particular order - interesting proposition, but I think you can't just make a sweeping statement and then say "prove me wrong". You have to prove your statement right. I'd like to see how you would organise society without taxation, for example. In fact, just as an example, if it weren't for taxation, you wouldn't have had this platform to voice your opinion, i.e. the internet. So how does this fit in your view of government being violence?
How is the internet the result of taxation?
And my post has nothing to do with how society would work without taxes or government. I'm not interested in utilitarian arguments, because anything can be justified that way. I'm interested in moral arguments.
It is an undeniable fact that everything the government does is backed by violence or the threat of violence. They are no different than the Mafia except for the fact that everyone is under the delusion that they have the right to bully people and commit these acts of extortion and violence.
Because the research that led to the world wide web was backed with public money.
So let's talk moral arguments then, sure. I'm not trying to deny anything, just would like to see you back your statement. Are you talking about legislation? What is an alternative? Are all attempts to govern violent?
Yes. All legislation is violent. Because if you don't obey, you will be met with threats of fines (more extortion) and jail (kidnapping). If you resist the violence, it will escalate.
As for alternatives, I can't predict exactly what "systems" free people might come up with, but this is a pretty good video explaining a possibility. It's the first in a series. I don't necessarily agree with all of the ideas in the video series, but it shows that there are possibilities.
But the videos don't offer anything at all. In fact they seem to boil down to displacing what is already there, and turning it all into lesser, for-profit systems, which very quickly looks like a horrendous idea.
Conceptually speaking, what is the difference between companies such as Dawn Defence and Tanner Justice, and democratically elected political parties? By incentivising the outcome of justice, his second video pictures a type of distopian nightmare that has been explored over and over again in countless stories. Humans are reduced to mere puppets or potential bags of money, that have to conform to a single end goal in exchange for their very identity. It's a caricature of exactly what you despise.
In his 'model', people are reduced to automatons where everyone has to think the same way (where have we heard that before?), and his view of 'government' seems to be this almost childish image of an authoritarian dictator, benign or not. In fact he speaks of it as if it's a single person, or body moving in perfect unison. He also seems to presume that government is by definition above the law. It is not. That's why, for example, currently in the US, Donald Trump can't get his muslim ban through.
The end result of it is still what you call violence. He talks of loss of social status, loss of financial means, loss of independence, imprisonment... But it is worse - it's now implemented for profit, and how does that sound? If you think corrupt governments are bad (and they are), try a system like this guy's. His example of conflict resolution through competing companies is not only utterly naive, it's also incredibly costly. The only result will either be a continuous 'search for justice' ad infinitum where everyone loses and the companies win, or large scale conflict.
Honestly, society has progressed a little bit since the invention of writing. Is it perfect? No of course not. It's continuously evolving with ups and downs and faster than ever before. And I think we may well agree on a lot of things should we discuss them. But reducing it, like this person does, to the equivalent of a car being any old box with four wheels underneath isn't very helpful.
Suffice to say. I'm not convinced...
As for the moral argument, is parenting violence? Is education?
Education SURE is :D
"Magical Fairy Dust" LMAO
Hard to argue with the truth!
Great meme as you say @sethlinson and great supporting points, themselves clear and concise. The sobering reality is that almost anything can be implanted into a young child's developing cognitive system and held as fact throughout adult life. Religion is one example and the use of the state along with an individual's supposed obligation and allegiance to it is another.
I've always found "amusing" the crime of "unlawful murder" as if the state is best positioned to decree which murders are OK!
We must break this fundamentally flawed mindset.
Keep spreading the truth brother! 100% upvoted.
The literal definition of terrorism is exactly how the government operates. Look it up. Good work. Followed. Upvoted.
This is very true. You've given me another post idea :P
Lol fourth one :-)