More n^2

in #non-linear6 years ago

Welcome back to another episode of why I want non-linear rewards back.
Let me start on this disclaimer:

The problem

The real reason, why rewards were so 'unfair' before hf 18 is this:


(taken from steemwhales.com)

A few accounts hold most of the Steem Power.
No change of the rewards distribution can change this imbalance overnight.
The trending page might look better to some now, but consider how many of those posting rewards go straight back to the whales, who sold their vote.
The Steem shares are distributed very disproportional right now.
In my view, this has been the main cause of problems and will be for quite some time.
There is just no way around it.

But we can not fix this problem by employing a broken rewards distribution algorithm.

That is the problem.

We can not fix this problem by employing a broken rewards distribution algorithm.
We can not fix this problem by employing a broken rewards distribution algorithm.

We can not fix this problem by employing a broken rewards distribution algorithm.

We can not fix this problem by employing a broken rewards distribution algorithm.

We can not fix this problem by employing a broken rewards distribution algorithm.

Even though this was part of my last post, I got this reply:

But @felixxx i don't understand why you think this will help against self votes for whales ?

If they have strong account than they will have enough r_shares. Do you think that it's a problem for them, to make few other accounts with SP delegation to those accounts to "spread" the r_shares among votes?

And bots selling votes could easily do the same. You "pay" for the vote and you get 10 votes from different accounts. Wouldn't that exploit the n^2 as well? the only thing you would do with this would be taking those couple of cents that minnows get and are more than grateful for them. Even if it's from themselves ...

But what you would get with this is, that "Steemit elders" who vote for each other would benefit exponentially as they did before. Wouldn't they?

It can be so frustrating.
Whenever I bring up this topic, I get the same replies.
I have to explain the same few things over and over again and whenever I feel like I finally established some understanding, we are back to But the whales ...

When I first discovered STEEM, it was how it worked and it was well thought out and it made perfect sense.
I could say: No, Steem is not a pyramid-scheme, because we have n^2 and that means we have a form of peer-review system for all content and only content that gets a consensus gets a payout.

This is not true anymore.

Now, the more Steem Power you have, the more weekly interest rates you can generate.
... Regardless of the quality of your content.

To explain, why n^2 would create a situation again, where players were actually competing for better content and would incentivize downvotes against abuse, let me point you to the original whitepaper:

The Story of the Crab Bucket

A man was walking along the beach and saw another man fishing in the surf with a bait bucket beside him. As he drew closer, he saw that the bait bucket had no lid and had live crabs inside.
"Why don't you cover your bait bucket so the crabs won't escape?", he said.
"You don't understand.", the man replied, "If there is one crab in the bucket it would surely crawl out very quickly. However, when there are many crabs in the bucket, if one tries to crawl up the side, the others grab hold of it and pull it back down so that it will share the same fate as the rest of them."
So it is with people. If one tries to do something different, get better grades, improve herself, escape her environment, or dream big dreams, other people will try to drag her back down to share their fate.

Try to make sense of this sentence in a linear scenario:

"If there is one crab in the bucket it would surely crawl out very quickly. However, when there are many crabs in the bucket, if one tries to crawl up the side, the others grab hold of it and pull it back down so that it will share the same fate as the rest of them."

With linear rewards it takes the crabs as much effort to climb the same distance themselves as it would take them to pull another crab down the same distance.
Or in other words, @ned decided to not use a bucket at all, and just let every crab walk for themselves.

If you want to create incentives for one whale to counter another whales' vote, then you need to employ non-linear rewards.

But what you would get with this is, that "Steemit elders" who vote for each other would benefit exponentially as they did before. Wouldn't they?

Perhaps they would.

It just goes to show, how bad some of the players were that the whales chose as their champions. In fact, most abusers have some of the highest reputations around here.

Sure, with n^2 we would have to fight other forms of abuse, but at least it would create an incentive to cooperate, discuss and curate content.
With linear rewards, the social part is just completely missing.

It sucks, that the whales have all the power.
It sucks, that those whales are all buddies of @ned.

But we can not fix this problem by employing a broken rewards distribution algorithm.

If you feel like having your comment downvoted today, feel free to reply with anything resembling but the whales ...

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Please sir, nice post sir, upvote me sir... but I want also upvote more your content sir, something I can not do now sir with this sh*tty only 10 votes at 100% sir thanks to lineal rewards.

I have sir, no more nice feeling to vote for more of your post sir because my voting power is to low sir. Please lend me some voting power, help people of China sir. My family and friends, they need my help and your sir.

And please sir, when will come the movil wallet sir? Much need it, re-steemed please upvoted me

XD

jajajajajajaj yes man Im getting tired of that as well

I forgot to use "Dear" dammm! XD

Hi @felixxx

Is it technically possible to calculate Upvotes and Dowevotes/Flags seperatly from each other?

For example we Stay with linear or n^1,25 and downvotes simply count with double SP?

Many things are technically possible :P

Fair Point.

Than let me ask a few more specific questions:

• Could an entirely new formula be implemented by the witnesses/Devs without an Fork?

• How Heavy Would the Network-Performance-Impact be when switching from simple functions (like linear/^2) to more Advanced stuff? Does this load applies to the witness-Servers and how much (more) Could they handle?

• Do you think an more complex Formula could solve the current Problem with the Crab, while still Match the concerns of the „but the whales..“ People?

Maybe there is an „Eierlegende-Woll-Milch-Sau“-Function out there.

Could an entirely new formula be implemented by the witnesses/Devs without an Fork?

No. That is the very definition of a hardfork.
It would require a change to the protocol and the majority of witness would have to run the new version of software.

How Heavy Would the Network-Performance-Impact be when switching from simple functions (like linear/^2) to more Advanced stuff? Does this load applies to the witness-Servers and how much (more) Could they handle?

Depends on the formula I suppose, but shouldn't create a performance issue.

Do you think an more complex Formula could solve the current Problem with the Crab, while still Match the concerns of the „but the whales..“ People?

I thought about this a lot:
No.

I mean, there are other options, as @dan explained in his post about 'proof of governance'.
But applicable for steem would only be n^x imo.

It would require a change to the protocol

How far could you go with the existing protocoll?

N^2, Root(N), Sigmoid(N), VESTS*Upvote-Count ..

I mean, there are other options, as @dan explained in his post about 'proof of governance'. But applicable for steem would only be n^x imo.

I'm honesly not a fan of n^2 - its to drastic because of the Whales (yes, said it).
Up to n^1,25 - ok, i see the reason for exponential but higher? Not in my opinion - thats to agressive.


Another point is that i think there should be an SP-CAP.
Being in the German Community i Hope you are familiar with how the "Bundesrat" works. At least 3 Votes for Hamburg (1 Mio Citizen)(Minnow), At most 6 Votes for NRW (18 Mio Citizen)(Whale). Why not match all Users in [100;10.000]SP - Would still be an 100:1 Comparison.

I think the Solution for the Whale-Problem doesn't and should be in the Payout function - as you said:

We can not fix this problem by employing a broken rewards distribution algorithm.
But i see no reason for not nerfing down really, really high SP-Values with an function between SP, VESTS and r_shares.

SP-CAP

Yeah, no thanks.

Anything that discourages holding large amounts of Steem gives the wrong economic signals and would devalue Steem.
It could also be gamed by just creating multiple accounts.

Read @dan; He really is a smart guy.

i've read his article you mentioned above.


Just wanted to mention that n^2 in my Opinion would screw over valuable Indie-Content in the favor of the trending/hot page and that i think this loss is higher than some mad Whales.

For the reasons you mentioned i agree with n^1.1 or something like that, but n^2 would hurt the plattform because i'm still mostly seeing it as an Whale-beneficary "Shareholder-Value"-Principle.

Steem and Steam have much in common.
I'm not here for AAA-Whale Content which gets 100$+ as i haven't bought Starwars Battlefront 2 or AC: Origins from Steam. Just because something is hot it hasn't to be good and this plattform needs Indie Content. The Plattform is imo better off with 100x1$ for small Content (of which 20 may be direct or indirect self-Votes) than with all the money going to three trending posts.

In my opinion the Stakeholders on this plattform are more important for the long term growth than some Whales who maybe sell-off their Steem if we don't feed them enought.

But well - Shareholders vs. Stakeholders is an age old question and we don't need to be the same opinion on that.

Just wanted to mention that n^2 in my Opinion would screw over valuable Indie-Content in the favor of the trending/hot page and that i think this loss is higher than some mad Whales.

Everybody seems to misunderstand that n^2 would seriously screw with how the whales are taking profits out of steem right now.

I get the bit about Indie or 'second tier content', though.

I should have mentioned, that when n^2 was active, accounts also could vote 40 times/24 hours instead of 10 times.
There are a heaps more details to sort out, but I mainly want to establish a discussion around n^2 and leave those details out for now, because then the discussion is just overcomplicated.

On Steam ( yeah steam ) sometimes Indie content makes it to the top and surpasses AAA titles.
I want a STEEM, where this is also possible again.

BTW: I don't want to spin this too far, because I don't quite believe that we will ever get functioning smts, but if they were to come, then perhaps, you could create a community around your type of content and reward them with your community token and they wouldn't have to compete with AAA content on Steemit.

I don't have a problem with self voting by whales.
or anyone else.

Congratulations @felixxx, this post is the tenth most rewarded post (based on pending payouts) in the last 12 hours written by a Hero account holder (accounts that hold between 10 and 100 Mega Vests). The total number of posts by Hero account holders during this period was 415 and the total pending payments to posts in this category was $10570.04. To see the full list of highest paid posts across all accounts categories, click here.

If you do not wish to receive these messages in future, please reply stop to this comment.

stop

Stop this, please.
And do not tell me what to do.

You’re excluded from future posts. And please get over yourself.

We would in a different kind of hell:)
The flag war between @berniesanders and @haejin would be of epic proportions with all their bots.

Hmm, as a whale.. currently, with 10 bots, they cannot get more by delegating.
But with n^2, wouldn't delegating their SP to 10 bots would x100 their power.. delegating to 100 bots.. 10000x times the power.
Or are my calculations wrong?

But for the minnows it would indeed be a big incentive to use more social skills...
We would see way more vlogs and already successfull facebook users, I guess.

Yes those calculations are wrong.

Can you point me to the right formula?
Your last article:
https://steemit.com/non-linear/@felixxx/why-n-2

If you were to use your vote on a post with already a bunch of r_shares, then upvoting that post would allow you to allocate much more rewards than if another account with 2x as much Steem Power voted on a different post with no other votes to stack on to.

Is not that clear, how exactly that would happen.

Also, who would discover new content?
Apperently, right now a lot of users already vote on the same face again and again, because there is already a bunch of votes on.
With n^2 this would increase, I guess.
Why 'waste' my vote on that nice poem, when I can get way more curator rewards back, by voting on that daily trending?

The actual payout would depend on where all the other r_shares were allocated to.

If the highest paying post had 2x as many r_shares as the second highest, the latter would get 1/4 of the rewards of the first one.

Why 'waste' my vote on that nice poem, when I can get way more curator rewards back, by voting on that daily trending?

Because with n^2 there is at least a chance that the majority of stakeholders will find a consensus of what 'good content' is and maybe one day they all agree that it is a nice poem and it will go viral and end up in trending.

I earn less than a penny per post sometimes quarter dollar...

Power rules! So?

Maybe if you rephrase it even more rudely that would help. I don't care about your tone, but yelling doesn't break it down to a more understandable situation.

Don't worry; I got this.

Thanks for this valuable post sharing... i appreciate this post.
i always follow your post dear friend....resteemit

I am very very sorry sir, i can't understand please withdraw your flag

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