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RE: Hardfork 20 (“Velocity”) development update

in #steem6 years ago

If you can get curation from a 20hour post that has $500 on it already, then curation no longer even exists.

Curation, in the actual sense of the word, doesn't exist now.

People are already ignoring the content and gaming for maximum investment, chasing the Dragon of maximum payout – no matter what the content is. What you describe is exactly what's happening, and all you really have to do is look at the way that systems work and what is actually being rewarded to see that's the case.

Consider this from the opposite direction: why shouldn't you get curation rewards for rewarding someone who is being successful? Even at 24 hours out? Are users of the platform not supposed to sleep? Are they supposed to get up in the middle of the night when/if someone who is known for producing content that they want to reward is doing so on the opposite side of the planet?

Your description of the failure mode of extending the voting window for curation is exactly the description of the failure mode that we see right now – but because of the underlying architecture of the way that rewards are structured. It's just that right now, people race to hit that mystical 20 minute mark, gambling on whether content is going to be a big hit in the next 10 minutes rather than whether people will have time to find the content and digest the content over the next day.

It's the race and the fact that what you see is not actually curation even as you describe it which is the real problem. Extending that "curation" window only has the side effect of letting more people get involved without changing the essential drive. Given that rewards get split, no matter how long things run for, and running things for longer both let's more value accumulate and splits it more ways – assuming more people get involved – there should be no net change in overall distribution.

Except that more people will be rewarded for attempting to use the system as you say it's intended to be used and not as a 30 minute race.

Your idea for 24h curation window is fundamentally flawed in that it completely invalidates what curation is made to do - give incentive to vote on good posts that have little to no rewards in anticipation that they will end up gaining more rewards from their quality and from you boosting it up the chart a little bit.

Note that your description has nothing to do with the quality of the post. It has nothing to do with the content. It has nothing to do with actual visibility or making sure that that post gets in front of people who are likely to also want to vote it up. The only thing that's important in your description, right there, is that you engage in a betting pool on whether or not a post is going to go up in value in a 30 minute slice.

And that's all.

It is, in fact, completely trivial to have a bot go around voting on all the highest paying posts to take a share of their awards – and it's being done right now. By lots of bots. And it's being done by lots of bots because there is no way that a human being could possibly be aware of all of the posts hitting the blockchain and respond at just the right time. Because the time window is so tight and so constant, the minigame of "curation" is completely broken in favor of bots, which drags the focus even further from content because bots just don't care.

As such, the economy of reward for engaging in curation does the opposite of providing for actual good curation. Instead, think of the blockchain as a warm a mass of fluid with a supercritical density of material dissolved in it. All of this material looking to find something growing just fast enough to attract all the rest. All it takes is one very light whale vote and suddenly all of the mass dissolved near it begins to accrete, not because the thing at the middle is worth anything, but because there is been a piece of particulate which has been attached and suddenly there's a swarm of more material looking to latch on.

Keeping the "curation" period at 30 minutes keeps the energy density in the fluid high, meaning any tiny little change will cause a mass material agglomeration. Lengthening the time over which curation can be rewarded would serve to reduce the energy level of the pool in general, allowing more considered, more human, engagement with the content.

If anything, your argument points directly against your declared position. Everything that you say would result has already resulted; that's what we see happening right now.

It's not going to get worse, because it's already about as bad as it can get – except for the fact that they are intending to shorten the "curation" time even further, driving more energy into the system, bringing it to an even higher boil, which will drive even more bot engagement which does nothing but try and chase the Dragon on following around significant whale votes, and nothing for actually getting good content to get good reward.

The only thing that limits your nightmare scenario from being completely overwhelming at this moment is the recharge time on VP, and while I think that could probably use a real change at an elemental level (probably by making the default voting percentage before someone has enough SP to get the slider 20%, bringing someone's daily votes to 50 before they lose appreciable voting power, without actually changing the amount of SP that they bring into play), and that's it. Because bots have a decaying, linear degradation in the amount of SP that they can bring to bear in 24 hours, that's the only thing that keeps your nightmare scenario even remotely at bay – and the ease at which bot accounts can be created, invested, and set loose has become a true infestation since hardfork 19 which helped make the situation as bad as it is.

One good thing you mention though, is that reward payouts could happen indefinitely [...]

Another user had an idea in that particular field that I thought was particularly insightful. They suggested that instead of an upvote on articles older than seven days, there would be a "tip" button, pressing upon which would open a slider interface that would effectively allow you to send them the amount of a vote directly. I don't have a problem with that. That would lead to evergreen content that people found and liked still being able to be rewarded by whoever wanted to.

Of course, in a very direct and effective way, that's basically just allowing upvotes on anything forever, but mechanically it is identical to finding someone who's post you like that's older than seven days, going to your wallet, opening it up, putting their name in, and sending them SBD or steem up to the value of one of your votes – or beyond. Which you can do right now. It would just make it easy and reasonable to do so.

I think you are very smart in the way you describe things, otherwise I would have just passed along, so don't take offense to my stance on this it is just some food for thought (and thinking is something I get the impression you like to do)

If I took offense easily, I certainly would never get into discussions on Steemit about financial issues. There is a disturbingly strong authoritarian, top-down architecture when it comes to how to manage other people's money, as it were – and my inherent antiauthoritarian Libertarian nature raises its hackles when someone tells me that they know better than I do about what I should be doing with my cash.

I operate under the belief that the more people that you have engaged with the system, the more likely you are to get something useful out of it. Things that keep people from engaging with the system will destroy the usefulness of that system.

Cutting down the window in which one can get curation rewards from upvoting content decreases the amount of time that people can engage with the content before they can be rewarded for finding something good. I find that to be inherently bad. The idea that the content doesn't matter, that the only thing that matters is whether or not you are willing to bet the value will go up instead of looking at it as an opportunity to reward the creator for giving you something that you like, I think that's inherently bad. This is the sort of thing that has led to Steemit being a little more than problematic when it comes to getting bloggers on board, because the community – by and large – doesn't give two farts in a whirlwind about content. The system doesn't really care about content. We are extremely lucky that some individuals are really passionate about good content, and some of them are members with significant blockchain-based power – but even as power-leaders, they can profit off the fact that as significant actors, when they vote on a piece and give it a big payday, it attracts other people who want to get on board the rising balloon for the payday, not because the content is good.

What Steemit refers to as "curation" is anything but. Again, it's a betting pool. You're betting on whether something is going to go viral, not based on its inherent qualities necessarily, but whether someone with real money is going to come along and vote it up.

Even when I profit thereby, I am uncomfortable with the fact that the system doesn't do what it says it does, because I think what it says it does or wants to do is a thing that needs to be done. We need mechanics which actually help us surface content that we are likely to enjoy and want to reward the creator of. We need mechanics which make it easier and more effective to engage with creators and content that gives us pleasure, and part of that is incentivizing finding that content to more people. Not less people.

Remember, every comment is a brand-new post as far as the system is concerned, so you can still harvest rewards on it for seven days. A month old post with an active comment thread is still an active engine of financial generation.

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You make some good points here, kind of a shame it's buried in some comments only AI bots will read sometime in the future ;) However, I do think the way you describe curation as it stands currently plays out differently depending on the bracket of person doing it based on parameters of SP and total SP of active followers. If for example, someone that has enough SP to push anything into the 'Hot' section of whichever category it is in (or has many followers) they can act as a curator through promoting undiscovered posts with their large upvote or by resteeming it. It is a large incentive for big votes to go to small authors, and this does not have anything to do with the 30 minute window and is also the ideal case for curation - a situation where some random person making large effort with low payout gets noticed and the person with large SP has a big enough incentive to dive in on their post that is sitting at $0.01 payout instead of upvoting something that already has attention. In the current system it could even be 3 hours after it was posted and people can do this now, in the case of followers anyone can do it with resteems. The problem is that for low-SP people with no followers this doesn't do anything, because upvoting something by a few cents isn't going to help it get noticed so the optimal path is to jump in front of other voters on already popular posters instead. However, the current system diminishes curation rewards from this because of the reverse-auction and people participating in piling on to one author undercut each other until only a small portion remains, even better if it goes on to trending people only upvote the post if they actually like it (or don't realize they aren't getting curation for it, I guess), because by the time a post is on trending you will get basically zero curation for upvoting it.

Despite bots always optimizing in any scenario, the current one pushes people away from piling into trending posts without reading them, which is a very very good thing. The incentives for larger votes to move to smaller authors are also very important, even if it only happens a fraction of the time. People don't do it much because like you say it's a gamble and gaining small amounts in predictable rates is psychologically more appealing than gaining large amounts infrequently, but top curators of steemit are able to find posts nobody noticed and push them up to the top and take a huge reward for doing it, which they should if people are ever expected to dig through infinite spam posts looking for one that's actually good. The way I would really like to see this improve is extending beyond the 7 day period where people can gain some kind of curation bonus for digging up older posts, because the current system is weighted to early posts. (I mention someone pushing a post to hot with a single vote but after a day or two that's almost impossible) After 7 days it doesn't matter if you dig up a gem you and the author get nothing, this seems like a major problem to me.

I think even if the curation mechanic is altered in some way the incentives should never align to voting onto something that already has $1000 payout. You shouldn't get any reward for something like upvoting the most upvoted post, and saying it like that makes me wonder if I even understand your idea as it was intended. If I can just look at the top payout posts and mindlessly upvote all of them it's not the kind of thing to be rewarded, and if people all pile on to upvoting the same author that always has high upvotes as soon as they make a new post it should also have less reward, which is why I like the reverse auction cutting down rewards. I think in an ideal scenario everyone would be trying to dig up gems regardless of their own SP and regardless of the chances it gets noticed any time soon. How it is possible to do that I would imagine has something to do with the long-term performance of a post based on views/upvotes extending beyond 7 days. I dig up a gem that has $0.05 on day 7 but goes on to be viewed 100,000 times then maybe I'm a good curator with low SP, but if I go to trending and upvote the top 10 posts every day I'm the worst curator ever. Seriously that is the worst curator ever, lol.

Maybe my interpretation of your idea is off a bit, but that is the way I interpret it, that after the change I could go to trending and mindlessly upvote all the top posts to get bigger rewards, and in that scenario the curator with a lot of steem power could get the same reward piling on to trending post as digging up a gem and pushing it into trending himself. For example a post with $1000 payout and he adds $10, or a post with $0.01 and he adds $10, to get the same reward he then has to push it up to having $1000 like the other just to break even on opportunity cost - a nearly impossible task for any curator to do so why even bother the best strategy is to just pile on to the biggest post. Despite front runners, this is not how the best curators of steemit currently work. They actually do search for hidden gems and actually do push them from pennies to hundreds, it just doesn't happen as often as it should.

Major issue of the snowballing mechanic is we currently have posts getting up into the $1500 range and they are pushed to the top of trending in general category on front page of steemit, so they already get a lot of exposure and extra money from it in a system where people have incentive to go vote on something that has much less payout if they expect any curation reward at all, so if it did the opposite the posts would have $5000 payouts instead and an ever increasing incentive to pile on to try grabbing a piece.

Maybe I don't understand what you mean exactly but to me it sounds like the little guys would struggle even more from that because most of their growth comes from posting, but all of the votes would gravitate to all of the other votes, and even if that happens some already if you find a post right now that is $25 with 100 votes are you going to try getting curation from it? No that would be silly, you should go for the post next to it that has $0.01 instead, and that is kinda the point I have about spreading the rewards around. Between the two scenarios and just looking at 2 posts you can see the difference between each is that in one system the votes spread between the 2 posts because of the incentives pushing people away from the post that already has high payout and in the other all the votes pile on to the same post polarizing the rewards into an all or nothing distribution. It's like, if you are not already successful you may as well give up.

Well, at least in that scenario voting bots would be really profitable :)

Anyway, thank you for writing all of this to me, I read it all and probably will again later when I'm not so tired so I can think about it more. From my perspective you want to see it improve and have something in mind to improve it, so I try to poke at the idea and maybe it grows. I also want to see it improve and hope the version number 0.20 is an indication that many changes are ahead in time. Again I want to say I do not mean any of this to discredit you but just to convey the way I imagine this kind of system in comparison to the (flawed) one we have now. I certainly would be interested to see it actually happen in an experimental way to go beyond hypothetical situations and theory and actually witness the effects, but I think this is the best we can do for now, just imagining the change and explaining whatever comes to mind from each perspective.

In the end we can both agree there are some problems in current curation and so I think it's a good sign to see curation is at least on their radar for active development. Maybe in time it will become more advanced :)

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