Instant liquidity for a fee?

in #steem5 years ago
I had a great conversation with @nicholaslive regarding this very thing. I must confess, when he first mentioned it I had my doubts, after all it's hard to see why we would benefit from it, but the more I thought about it, the more an actual product/service was beginning to form in my head.



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The Risk of Powering up


In order to present more or less why I think this actually might work, give me two minutes to talk about some market psychology. Now, I will preface this by saying I'm not an authority on this, but I've read enough to have an opinion at least, for whatever that is worth. That being said, there are plenty of conversations regarding this matter that I've participated on to know that there are enough people of this mindset.

How many people are holding to liquid STEEM not because they would not like to power up and enjoy the benefits, but because if they do and something was to happen, something unexpected, accessing those funds would take weeks and thus potentially hurt them.

I think it's important to point out that if the fear is rational or not is not really something I'm trying to debate. Some cogent reasons can be crafted for both sides of the argument, but what I'm really interested in, at least for this particular idea, is to talk about the group of people who hold this belief.

I speculate that if there was a way for them to access the funds, even with a penalty if the emergency was to happen, they would probably power up and be more comfortable with the idea of long term, simply because there is a choice.

A possible solution: Transferring Vested Power


If you are tilting your head sideways right now I apologize, but please give me two minutes to explain the idea in detail. Today on the STEEM blockchain we can do many functions that most people are not even aware of already. We can: escrow, vest onto another account, withdraw to third account, and autopower up one also. These functions are not commonly used simply because most users, not all obviously, operate one account and thus don't require such tooling.

It's precisely because some of these functions exist that I speculate that adding the function of transferring vested STEEM would not be that difficult to implement, but of course it would require a fork, yes, the one thing everyone is still emotionally recovering from.

Painting the Picture - Accessing Liquidity

For the sake of argument let's say I had a small emergency and I needed to sell some of my holdings. I could no doubt start a powerdown, and wait seven days for the first payout, but what I need to pay cannot wait seven days. Outside of asking a friend, I'm pretty much dead in the water, would you not say so?

Well, what if I could sell my STEEMPOWER to @blocktrades for example, and in return receive liquid funds back. I could receive them in STEEM of course, or any other token for that matter. The idea however would work only if there was profit to be made by the exchange or user who would be buying the vested STEEM and thus forfeiting the cost opportunity.

To make my example a little more palpable and simple, imagine I would sell 100 STEEM POWER to @blocktrades and he in return would send me 90 STEEM tokens. The profit for @blocktrades would be 10 STEEM tokens, and I would resolve my need to access my holdings with urgency.

Trust Issues


I realize to some people this whole exchanging of STEEM for Vested STEEM might sound like I'm advocating for opening the cryptopian pandora's box, but this is not the case at all. In the case of a service like @blocktrades it might not be necessary, but if a market was to built for hosting said idea, then possibly for the first time ever, we would be implementing the escrow functions this blockchain already has.

This way people who don't complete their end of the bargain would not be able to take advantage of the situation. Also the market, if one was to be created would work as a pseudo-futures market, and all details pertaining the transactions would be clearly defined.

What about people dumping?


I ran this idea by a few people I deeply respect intellectually and so far I've been hearing a divided opinion on the matter. I happen to believe that if someone is simply holding to their STEEM because the 13 weeks of waiting is keeping them here, then they were on the way out anyways.

This without even mentioning that the cost for accessing liquid funds would probably be steep. This is to say that if I wanted to dump 100K right now, granted there are enough sellers to even reach that number, I would end up paying for it 20k if not more. Why? Because you are accessing a premium pool of liquidity and it's understandable that the convenience fee would be high. So I for one, do not fear such thing happening.

Steemit Inc would not be interested anyways


To preemptively remove this part of the conversation from the comments. Yes, that's possible, but maybe that is something they've not considered to begin with, and if there is enough of us who like the idea and embrace it, then why wouldn't they at least consider it?

I remember @heimindanger mentioning in a group setting how he finds that the inaccessibility to our liquid funds is one of the reasons why we are not so investment friendly, and as much as I did have some retort at the time, when @sorin.cristescu brilliantly explained the need for vested STEEM, I went back to my hotel with this taking up a lot of space in my brain.

Would love to hear some Feedback


Do you think this is something that would benefit the blockchain, or the opposite. I'm obviously completely fine with disagreements as one of the things I strive to do is not to live inside my own bubble, so let me have it.

As always, much love my friends

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I was wondering when you were going to bring this idea to the blockchain, it sounds like an opening post?

I get it, it sounds attractive, and with variable exchange rates depending on size/urgency, I think there would certainly be a market for it.

For a long time, I've held a comment from @mattclarke in mind with regards to one of his attractions to Steem/SteemPower, which was the lock-in period (e.g. providing stability) - and when he first invested it was much more than 13 weeks to power-down completely.

It would be interesting to get the thoughts of some of the larger investors like BT, I'll be checking back in later :)

I would love to get Matt's input on this too... hopefully others show up!! ;)

I won't start dm my post to whales, but I'm tempted! hahahah

Thanks for the mention, Asher. Great to see you having fun at steemfest. Maybe next year.
I loved this idea, right up until I read blocktrades' comment.
The powerdown period is a huge safety feature, and I think it's kept us out of the crosshairs of very sophisticated scammers.
They know they won't get much, so they're looking elsewhere.
Security concerns aside, transferring/selling SP at a variable discount via a market would be the best of both worlds. In a broad, dump scenario the reduction/take would be huge, since everyone is looking to get out. If it's just a personal emergency, that haircut would be much smaller.
Better for buyers too. I'm only buying Steem to power it up. If I can get it pre-vested at a discount I'm getting more :)
I'd love to go back to 104 weeks. SP is influence, and I want the influence in the hands of people planning years down the road, not months.

Yes the 3 month lock-in is a pretty important safety feature. I have sometimes been able to purchase SP slightly cheaper than Steem on block trades. I don’t know how they transfer SP directly but they do.

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its an advanced feature of power up.. you can do it too... we payout prizes in helpie this way ;)

So how is this different from what you are suggesting? If one can buy SP then someone else must be selling it? No?

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with the current method liquid steem in my wallet, can be powered up to another wallet.

What i'm suggesting is vested steem to be transferred to another wallet, still vested.

Maybe with the mana drained... (gotta think more about this) but yeah.

How many times this scenario happened to every steemian from long forgotten era of 2016. We had 2 year powerdown back then, but Steem inflation was 100% which created a bunch more SP for SP holders. Things changed to 3months powerdown and 10% inflation, but the problem for every powered up individual lies in problematic short lasted "top" where price stays for maximum 2 weeks, most people missed the opportunity to sell on top. 2 reasons why, they don't know the markets and they were locked with their SP.

Funny thing is even though the price still dropped, those that could of benefited the most from the top, aka steem believers, minnows, dolphin SP holders, without liquid steem just couldn't reap the benefits of that top, meanwhile whales with huge stakes raked all the money. System in that regard is broken, you just can't cash out SP effectively, only those with liquid Steem stored in exchanges sell walls can.

If there is some tool like you suggest that could ease that power down period that would allow a user to try to hit the price close to the top would be most welcome. But in short term that would probably crash the price even more, thus making the rest who are still fully powered up very cranky.

I know @themarkymark pretty much shares your opinion on this... granted it's a complete possibility for this to be the case.

I wish there was a way to simulate such thing...

Another way of doing this is to enter into a contract where you voluntarily give away temporarily your owner and active authority to whoever is lending you the liquid Steem. To mitigate risk the recovery account would also need to be changed.

This does not require a hardfork but just building an application that already takes advantage of the functionalities of the blockchain.

Actually I'm writing out a post about this as a type of market idea... ill share it tomorrow, since I'm trying to space these ideas out... ;)

Querido amigo, sabes bien cuanto amo a Steemit ya que fue la plataforma que me vio nacer en este de la escritura; de manera que siento que le haríamos un poco de daño si vendemos nuestras acciones, es decir haríamos mas daño que bien a la cadena de bloques, peeeero....
Si igual (como tú dices) ya ese usuario "va de salida", pues que se vaya mas rápido con menos ganancia, por querer salir apurado jajaja.

Again...
THANK YOU!

I think that as distribution of the token improves this could be an options as the problem of allowing it now could result in unsustainable runs on the currency if not balanced by something else. Although the discount you mention would limit that risk, the discount may become too large in order for the risk taker, @blocktrades in your example, to want the risk for 13 weeks. A potbelly thought would be to either lower the power down period or allow for scaling of the powerdowns instead of then being straight line. So they could ask for lets say up to 50% after one week but as little as 5% for subsequent weeks. The problem continues to be one of not only internal liquidity but external as well.

I speculate that if there was a way for them to access the funds, even with a penalty if the emergency was to happen, they would probably power up and be more comfortable with the idea of long term, simply because there is a choice.

I am into this situation 100%. If there was a possibility to instant power down some amount of Steem I would have invested my own money into SP and not only what I earned with Steemit and that's the words of a plankton...
To answer your question regarding if that would help the blockchain I would say definitely yes. People would probably buy more Steem and power up knowing that they could access it at any time even at some costs. It wouldn't bother me to pay a 10% on an instant power down if there would be such option.
Meno you have my vote and resteem for opening this topic. It is something I have been thinking about many times before.

Interesting thought, and the functionality should probably be there. Though, I would suggest that a smart investor wouldn't put so much into a time sensitive commitment, and the only people that might use this service would be panicked people trying to pull out after a crash similar to today.

It kind of reeks of another way for uninformed people to be taken advantage of when their FUD / FOMO hits.

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you know, I have thought of this too... but its one of those things that I'm still not sure where I stand...

Can we really protect people from bad choices? or can we just hope to be better at informing them...

again, dont know where I stand just yet...

Yeah its a weird one. Likely, the original poor choice would be locking up those funds. A small-ish fee to "fix a mistake" and liquidate isn't the end of the world, or most nefarious idea for sure.

Could be a decent way for people more committed to steem to get powered up on the cheap while "helping" someone...

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i think it comes back to that age old advice. don’t invest more than you can afford to lose.

i have my steempower vested and don’t wanna touch it. but i can understand different situations for different people.

but if a company like blocktrades wants to offer that it could be a service that is used by a few folks that need the cash out.

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Maybe I should do a poll, there is a new app for this... I saw bernie using it recently... see where the majority stands.

ya @therealwolf just used it, dpoll i think it’s called.

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@fyrstikken made a post a little while ago suggesting we drastically reduce the power-down time, and I think that's a better solution.

I do remember that post... it is obviously a choice... what would be your concerns regarding this option?

I don't know that I have any real concerns, it's just that this is a bit of a hack and that is a more native and user-friendly way of doing the same thing.

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