Some thoughts on voting and bots
I have a long train ride to read all posts by @dantheman and this post really struck me.
There is a lot of controversy about @berniesanders announcing to flag @minnowbooster. Some call him an abuser for flagging people who probably got into the crossfire undeserved. Some call him a dark knight and savior for saving steem from vote buying that he initiated with @randowhale.
My opinion is that vote buying is a symptom for a bigger issue of discovery. New users have a hard time getting noticed. Many don't care about content or the humans behind the screen. A few dictate most rewards.
There are many good discussions on how to solve these underlying problems and participating in the process of finding solutions is incredibly important.
Until this process comes to a solution, minnowbooster will be 'the better bot' with a team that cares. Sure, we earn money for the work we do and there is nothing wrong with that. And we will protect our customers at the best of our abilities.
The last week was rough and interesting. I talked with @berniesanders and he said that many complaints about buildteam were raised to him. And I think it is really sad that I got to hear none of them, so nothing can change. Most feedback we got was implemented as soon as possible, was completely unaware of reality or was something no solution exists for.
Some users expressed their disagreement with flags and we didn't retaliate. We respect the fact that others have different opinions and they have a right to express them. Just because some like to threaten others doesn't mean everyone will.
At first I was pretty angry at bernie and his lack of feedback, what his problem was. But I thought about it and he is just a human being like I am. He was not aware about rando abuse happening and about all the work minnowbooster does to combat abuse. And I see him making up for it by digging up a lot of abuse he will probably flag starting in the next few hours.
I don't think minnowbooster customers are part of the abuse and in the spirit of dans post I could probably offer a list of really bad guys. Should @berniesanders or someone else find abuse of minnowbooster then we can unvote it. I decided to ban @earthnation on their recent behavior and will leave the decision to others if their use of minnowbooster is justified.
So to summarize, my take on this matter and my suggestion:
• if you think, what I do sucks, tell me
• if you dislike something, flag it
• I won't flag you for disagreement (outside of rewards)
• minnowbooster will exist as long as users need it. If you hate MB, try fixing steem.
• If you hate me getting a few dollars for the work I do, I suggest you support Utopian.io as Systems like this could be an incentive for developers to get payed for doing things for free.
• Stop crying reward pool rape and fucking do something. Should steem require witch hunts to survive then the system is flawed. Getting away from a linear curve and delegation could help, but more discussion is needed.
Get uncomfortable, buckle up, this will be a bumpy ride and there will be no heroes or villains, only humans.
Thank you very much for pointing out Dan's post. Really good and a must read for everybody on Steemit I should say.
I'm glad that you and him have actually spoken and that you were both able to get your points across and learn some things you weren't aware of. This seems better than ranting in angry posts (although we'll see what the future holds there. More so for him than you).
There is clearly a demand for minnowbooster (and randowhale before he went into permanent sleep) and of course, people are going to look for loopholes to exploit them because there's a financial incentive to do so. I'm glad that you are keeping track of that and fixing the issues as they come up. Let's face it, there's not a lot more you can do since you can't anticipate every single issue.
I would also question those who think it's unfair you get paid for your services. How does giving all your time and skills generate new and better products/services? Financial incentives breed innovation and competition. That's just the way it is. I'm also guessing none of these people would do the amount of work you do on steemit for free.
So thank you. Keep up the good work.
Thank you!
I am looking forward to how steem evolves. It will probably be a tough ride, but that is to be expected.
I'd work on steem itself, would I get payed for it. But I don't have the luxury to work for free. And innovation on steem would be a lot faster if developers earn from it. That our utopian-io founder had to donate his payouts to stay credible is not something I am looking forward to in the future...
especially since the profits don't just go to one person like every other upvote bot, but to a diverse group of investors... and actually, nobody has been mentioning this lately, but minnowbooster reduced roi on it's bot so it's only for visibility and is quite a bit more difficult to be used to for profit.
Welcome to reality!
Probably new users need to understand that this place was not created to make quick money but to create value.
The fact that a steemit user may eventually get rewarded monetarily for that value is a great plus (an extra), but it should never be the main and initial driver. Ask authors how long it took them to publish their first book in the markets.
Nothing worth ever comes easy.
Vote buying is completely counterproductive to organic and healthy growth. It won't ever be able to really satisfy the demand of longlasting visibility, attention and brand recognition.
What about trying to earn attention instead of purchasing it?
Now there will be people trying to sell me that life was easier on steemit back in summer 2016 when some of us older users joined the platform. But I tell you something: that's not true. The only thing that was different back then was the mind-set. What people have forgotton in the meantime is that this is a 'social network' and not a money printing mashine. Instead of being constantly complaining about missing rewards, people may think about what they may contribute to this platform first.
That re in RE-ward has a meaning.
When they finally understand that 90% of the people who are listed on the trending page and receive some decent rewards, have invested LOTS of money and time and dedication in this platform for months, and that many of them are building real projects on the Steem blockchain, then they might eventually stop complaining and start working instead.
Sorry for the long text! It's just that I can't here the whinging anymore.
Steem on
Voila! Once again I do agree with you.
Oh well, I started June 2016 and got 0.40 cents on my first article..
It took me 12008 posts to get my attention ( by some) . Count the hours ......
Its hard but fun " work".
I said it before, I tried those services but gave up on them.
Nicely said, @mammasitta. We've got 'the best job in the world', don't we? :-)
I enjoy every second so far! It’s actually quite insane how much I have learnt this past year and some of my friends call me “nuts”. Oh wellllllll 😝
You are really a hardworker then. Good for you. Inspired
In recent times it’s getting more and more difficult and frustrating to see how things are rewarded. I am running out of Voting Power way too fast and I am not a so called “small talker”, especially not with a few powerful “whales” who mostly care for their own profits and how to get them. I am disgusted how some “play” the community and My eyes can still see “reality”.
No place is perfect but I like the honest!!! people I met.
That’s why I am still here!
Thanks to you and other writers, steemit is still going on. If steemit had depended on google or other ad networks, this site would have folded up long ago. Self promotion is very much frowned upon. If the whales only cared or maybe found a bot to reward quality, then steemit would have really grown to greater heights.
Usually I agree with most you say and write - I certainly do NOT agree with 90% (pre booster time) of listed on the trending really create value. We could then probably start a different discussion to define what is value :-)?
Also the soon-to-start war is as far as I understand not about the concept of vote buying which I personally see as more transparent and honest versus the behind the curtain circle jerk agreements in place - but that is life, relationships count which is not bad per se - it is just reality. It happens everywhere not only on steemit or online - no whining on it.
Just wanted to outline my thinking - which will not change anything. We need to accept how it is or work on improving it the way the individual thinks by themselves. Some suggestions to change with a new HF I have seen already yesterday on the Roadmap 2018 posts which might help Steemit on a long-termed basis (kudos to @ats-david and @jesta) like:
Source suggestions by @ats-david below:
https://steemit.com/roadmap2018/@steemitblog/steemit-roadmap-2018-community-input-requested#@ats-david/re-steemitblog-steemit-roadmap-2018-community-input-requested-20171116t213306723z
Change the voting algorithm from full linear to anything but full linear. This has been an abject failure in practice and ought to be rolled back. Then we can discuss a better alternative that is neither n2 nor n.
Restore the 40-vote target.
Remove the STEEM Power delegation function. It not only reduces user demand for STEEM on the open markets, but it has also created another avenue for widespread mismanagement and abuse/exploitation of the collective and limited reward pool.
Reintroduce stronger bandwidth limitations. The amount of spam on the network via posts, comments, and wallet transfers/memos from new accounts is very high and is greatly inflating the daily "transaction" numbers for the blockchain. This is "bloat" that can be easily managed. Those who wish to spam can spend money on STEEM, if they so choose.
Consider reintroducing the four-post reward limits. This has no impact on the number of posts that one may publish in a given day. It only affects the total number of rewards that one user can receive from the limited collective reward pool.
Source last 2 by @jesta:
https://steemit.com/roadmap2018/@steemitblog/steemit-roadmap-2018-community-input-requested#@jesta/re-steemitblog-steemit-roadmap-2018-community-input-requested-20171116t191410456z
Beneficiaries Payouts: Currently beneficiary rewards only pay out in SP. These rewards should pay out in whatever method the author of the post chooses (50/50 SBD/SP or 100% SP).
User/platform configurable rewards distribution: The hardcoded 75%/25% Author/Curators split is something I'd like to see customizable. This ratio should be configurable within the comment_options operation and support between 0/100 and 100/0 ratios. Each Steem powered website could either set this ratio at the platform level or surface the choice to the end user via the interface. Different types of content deserve different types of rewards and by allowing this option to be configurable, it opens Steem up to different opportunities.
I think it's totally OK that we don't fully agree on anything :-)
Question: how would any of these suggestions you've just listed improve the visibility of a brandnew user? I thought we were talking about a minnow problem, but voting algorithm, post limits or payout shares are not really effecting someone who has a reputation of 25+ and wants to grow.
Instead of trying to rearrange the rewards distribution, we probably should rather think about a bigger picture: how to make time spent on steemit valuable?
Sorry, the suggestions I listed are top ones to make Steemit a fairer platform not necessarily improve visibility of brand new users.
My entire comment was more related to your point of creating value which could be discussed for months. I think this is based on the perception of users what they see as a value. We only talk about what creates Value for Steemit, usually what users see as value. This does not necessarily mean it creates any Value for Steem as a currency, different things.
Before I start to elaborate for hours why I do not see value in particular posts let us maybe agree that it requires some open discussion, nowadays we have black or white thinking mainly and wars are never good, flagging of scammer shit is NEEDED, therefore I fully support some Flags when it helps the community.
I remember when I was a young user here and tried to moderate between some powerful whales to stop flagging each other - was a shit idea. I learned that you should rather be silent here before they flag the shit out of you, only sometimes I come to comment my thoughts. Back to work now - need to create value for my customers now.
YES. Agreed :-)
Sorry if you feel that my post was whining. That was certainly not the intention.
I agree with you that providing value is important. I don't agree that visibility is good. There are many opportunities for improvement and while we should not give everyone a cookie, currently the cookies are distributed pretty badly. And I don't think that that is an unpopular opinion 😉
I wasn't talking about your post. I was talking about a general mind-set.
I didn't say that. I only said that it doesn't come for free.
Everybody who wants a piece from the cookie as you named it, should do something to earn it.
In the past I have done lots of video tutorials and even given personal trainings to new users on steemit. Some of them are really on fire and want to learn, others don't. The first group is the one that's going to succeed here.
Don't take everything personally btw :-)
No worries, I don't :)
Yeah, I agree that you should work to get rewards. My issue is with those that work and get no rewards. But that os my opinion.
Generally, we as a community should start finding consensus. It should not be the decision of a few.
I thought a bit about vote-buying and the service that @minnowbooster is providing and there are pros and cons. The current reward system on steemit does not reward good content directly, it rather rewards it by counting votes. The issue with that is that there is an emotional component that influences how votes are distributed. If you are my "friend" I generally vote for you regardless of what you write. If you are new and you don't have popular friends on steemit you are pretty much screwed. @minnowbooster is actually addressing an issue of Steemit, it's a promotional tool that new users can use to increase their visibility. Nobody gets rich by purchasing a vote with @minnowbooster, all it does is increase the visibility of posts in the trending page. Rationally it would not make sense to go through the trouble of promoting a post if I did not genuinely try to write good stuff. Going after users that try to promote their content is not going to solve much. People answer to incentives, if there is a certain behavior you want you just have to find a way to reward it more effectively. Right now good content is not rewarded directly, how many votes a post receives should be just one criteria, I am surprised view counts are not considered at all.
I agree with you :)
View count is a thing steemit is calculating and is not part of the blockchain. If you view this post on busy.org the counter does not increase. Or they may have their own counter.
@rhondak also recently wrote a great post about this topic: https://steemit.com/steemit/@rhondak/thinking-like-a-whale
Hey @reggaemuffin,
I don't understand everything, so I will give opinions where I'm capable. What I will say is thank you for throwing down that ban on earthnation. The people who run the vote bots becoming aware of the abuse and taking measures I feel is a big step up from where everyone was.
Mahalo,
shello
Ein wirklich guter Post mein Lieber !
Kann dir da einfach nur zustimmen und finde dich deine Reaktion hier sehr vernünftig und erwachsen.
Danke! Genau das war mein Ziel. Schwarz Weiß Denken ist unangebracht in dieser Situation.
"My opinion is that vote buying is a symptom for a bigger issue of discovery. "
you spelled capitalism wrong
' If you hate me getting a few dollars for the work I do, I suggest you support Utopian.io as Systems like this could be an incentive for developers to get payed for doing things for free.'
wait.........
Yeah capitalism sucks and 'money talks'.
My point is that utopian-io could offer developers an income so they don't have to worry about money.
I'd love to have a basic income or live in an abundance society and work for free but the real world is saying no.
basic income is a bad idea and communism works far better than capitalism
All communism I saw till now had huge mismanagement issues. It would require a huge change in thinking to have it work. I wish you luck and would probably join you, but I don't believe humanity is ready for it.
Abundance societies are a good middle ground in my opinion.
https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/wiki/debunk
here is the debuking anti-communism masterpost, it has sources on that in there
capitalism is a management nightmare, we still haven't done anything about climate change
Cool, I'll check that out. But I think there are more solutions than comunism or capitalism.
market socialism failed and mutualism is kinda trash
take chile for example, on 30% of the trucks they were able to move 80% of the resources as they could while capitalist.
Crapitalism. It's called crapitalism.
I think you spelled oppression wrong
What I posted on transisto's post:
My idea to solve both spam and vote buying is to encourage those like @blocktrades and @minnowbooster, even @berniesanders if he needs a new direction, to change their business model. Instead, delegate to trusted curation teams like OCD, Steemstem, steemiteducation, some of the country-based ones and so forth, who will then do the quality curating with that SP, thus boosting the minnows and reducing spam ability/incentive
To get an ROI, they could offer a premium where any user can send a small payment to prioritize viewing of their posts, edit: and higher potential upvote value (but not guaranteeing an upvote). There are enough people in these teams to cover most tags and can always recruit more.
Convincing a few whales would be a far easier solution than changing the framework of steemit via hardforks and the like, and they'd still profit if done right
First of all thanks for the open words @reggaemuffin - I certainly am sure all your work has been with good intentions and you helped most users of your service to date. I am quite sure Bernie is not fighting the Vote Buying itself here - I do understand he is flagging some people not deserving high rewards which I support if he hammers the right ones away. You are a good boy! You do good and you are not whining. I probably am not able to help you in any other way then commenting.
If it is against vote buying (which I doubt) all of these services would need to be addressed, ideally in an open discussion or with rules forked into the blockchain or how you call this. I agree some posts simply do not deserve certain high rewards - which leads again to the usual issue of the trending circle jerk shit - which is a result of relationship building which is normal.
The move jerk and the new delegation scammers are the main problem here in my view which need to be addressed. Have a great evening!
Yeah, the delegation spammers are something that definitely needs addressing and I would help bernie, would I not have to save my power to defend myself...
Since mb did not do delegation spamming and reviewed all whitelist candidates before approving them, I see no reason for him to attack us, other that him dislikeing vote buying.
Sadly he doesn't want to give me feedback on where to improve. So we will wait and see I guess...
Great to hear you would support the delegation spam fight! I am sure he is not dislikeing vote buying as such
I hear “whitelist” for the first time.
What’s THAT!?
I keep myself silent and keep on going but obviously I miss out on being “whitelisted”. Can you imagine how many feel like me?
I don’t like small talking into some lists or circlejerks but obviously you can see it also on my rewards and payouts. If I would not have my followers I would drown and steemit would loose a very damn loyal Steemian who never powered down.
What about Rewards for “Loyalität” to STEEM & Steemit?
“Wait and see”! I do but things got worse here, worse than ever ....@reggaemuffin
The best way is to play fairly and think of sustainable development in the system. Thanks @reggaemuffin, your summary ends it all
Thank you! We have to look beyond personal fights and start the discussion again.