💡Idea time! 😀 FIX TRENDING 🛠️...

silentscreamer (69)in #steem • 6 years ago (edited)

I have been having a few discussions lately with a number of people on @fyrstikken post about Bid bots. LINK so i had an idea concerning how we could offset the effect payed for trending posts have on the outward perception of Steem as a somewhat "Crap content economy".
I have watched @ned go on an interview on some mainstream media program few days ago... (Cant remember the name atm) and that was the first comment the shows host had before asking him any further questions, after which he himself acknowledged that they kind of failed in that aspect.

To that regard i give you.... "The PROMOTED tab". Oh you forgot that existed did you?

Its the one on the far right.. No not HOT, far right... yes a bit more... Yes.. there you go.. Click it... You can actually click it. Yes.. Go for it.. There you go...

So this is what i think Steemit,inc could do..

They remove the PROMOTED tab completely or simply rename it. They create a filtered tab on the Steemit interface, THE NEW TRENDING which would filter out all the Upvote bought posts and leave up only those that gained upvotes organically. A way to filter out posts with upvotes from Booster, Minnowbooster, buildawhale, SmartSteem, etc...

They dont remove those posts from all tabs but rather leave it the "now Trending page". This way you dont really attack the bot owners but rather offer an option for those that want to consume content that gained exposure through organic means, by choice of the community. Not through self promotion.

This would also have some problems. You know who im talking about. The simplest solution would be to add a daily limit to trending in that tab.
The other problem would be passing this in the Witness vote. As time goes by we will see more and more bot owner Witnesses coming into the top 20. Fyrst, Therealwolf, JerryBanfield, MarkyMark are all on their way up. Once they get where they want to be there really is no chance they would allow for anything that could hurt their bottom line...

A "black market" would of course start to exist to exploit this NEW TRENDING page, but i think it can be dealt with relative ease and the inconvenience created would surely offer a chance for organically upvoted posts to get the exposure.
A off-steem blockchain service would probably be created for upvotes bought in Bitcoin or something else, but even then that service would have to be open and transparent which would allow for Steemit,inc to adjust their code to add those which participate to the NEW PROMOTION tab (the now trending).
The point is inconvenience. And i think it can be achieved.

If Steemit,inc doesnt want to do that, i think some kind of pluggin, addon could be created for Mozzila, Chrome that would do the same kind of filtering for those with the addon.
Im sure there are a lot of people, me included, that are curious as to see what Steemit looks like without bought upvotes.

If no vote paid posts got into the NEW TRENDING i would not care in the slightest if someone bought tens of thousand in upvotes.

My whole point is in the outward perception of Steem and how it effects growth. If upvote payed posts couldnt get into this new trending i would have no problem outside the fact that if SP delegation reaches % close to 100% No one could really get any kind of rewards.

But the fact you could not get into this NEW TRENDING through vote buying would keep those delegation percentages lower in my opinion.

Let bots have their economy and let those that want to consume content lifted up by the community, considered as content of value, of quality, have theirs.
Lets see which one interests people more.

If something like this already exists, cool, ill check it out .:D .. Rambling again. See you guys...
Keep on Steeming.

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6 years ago in #steem by silentscreamer (69)

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zyx066 (72) 6 years ago

I'm learning still, so please correct any ignorance from my side ;-)

First, thank you for your "rambling", as you call it :-) I agree with everything you say here, as far as your goals are concerned. @LLfarms also started a project with her MaM win to create an alternative for the now defunct Trending page, and you both have absolutely the right idea. What I like especially about this post is this:

My whole point is in the outward perception of Steem and how it effects growth.

All, or at least most discussions on this topic stay stuck in the Steemit inner circle and only concern the internal behaviors of Whales, Witnesses et cetera, but the "image" towards non-steemians is of prime importance for organic growth, as much as this idea of yours is paramount for organic upvotes to organically generate an image of "quality" instead of the mediocrity that reigns today.

This outward image is also why I thought it important to use topic related tags instead of tags to get upvoted by this or that project, as good intended much of these projects are. Fill the tags box with those, and no one will ever be able to successfully search for the topic in search-engines like Google; they'll never find our content, good or bad.

What I'm concerned with though is this: In my mind there's no solution to be found in economics or technical protocols or scripts. When you analyze what these bots and the whales who run them do, their existence should be a surprise to no one. What I mean is this: what's de difference between investing money in upvotes and self-voting? That's an investment in VP to upvote yourself that you could have used to upvote someone else's quality content, regardless of the quality of your own posts. I believe this is a tiny way the same the whales do in a big way.

I'm not attacking anyone that self-votes, don't get me wrong, I did a lot of self-voting to before I started learning about the basics of a gift-economy here in Steemit. But even a gift-economy won't solve this phenomenon, at least I can't see that happening. Many people hail the public blockchains as a panacea for all the greed-related problems humanity has, but I'm afraid they'll be unpleasantly surprised to learn that it isn't. Solutions will have to come from us. We will have to change our ways. As long as the all engulfing off-chain fiat-economy is based on making profits, and as long as people therefore believe that "greed is good", money will find a way to make more money.

And please, don't read my ramblings as a disapproving of your idea: I think it's great! But I will keep investing money in my posts and won't upvote them myself. That way I personally can keep increasing my SP with a minimal loss of SBD, or even a small profit sometimes. Concrete: I transfer 2SBD each post to Minnowbooster and Smartsteem for a return of 3.5 - 3.6 SBD in total, so I lose .5 SBD, but on top of that I get 1.2 Steem out of it that goes straight to the SP wallet. And that I use to upvote others only, never myself. And I use MB and SS because they're the only ones I know of that use a white-list (one by recommendation and one manually).

It's a compromise, and an ugly one, I know, but it's the best compromise I have been able to find for myself. Also in the post from @fyrstikken he makes a couple of legitimate claims, like the bot users always stay powered up 98% thereby ensuring this half gift-economy even works. We're gonna need the whales for now I'm afraid...

Of course, if your idea gets adopted, I'll support it all the way, same for LLfarm's project, and I'll also be the first to admit I was wrong :-) No, I'll admit I am wrong right now if you teach me more about this complicated economy. I by no means am as knowledgeable about it as you, @fyrstikken or Meno! Also it will be interesting to see what Steemit will do when SMT's and Oracles kick in; I really don't know how that's gonna work, but I hear a lot of more experienced Steemians being positive about them...

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phoneinf (72) 6 years ago

It's good that money makes more money. More value in the system. More wealth trickles down. It's simple. Everyone is getting richer if we get a Trillionaire on Earth. That will say it's all win-win.

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1 vote

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zyx066 (72) 6 years ago

Thanks for your response, @phoneinf :-)

I'm very curious as to why you believe trickle down works... We effectively live in a trickle-up economy, it's the way it's designed to work, and it works perfectly well. If trickle down were real, don't you think all problems concerning poverty would be solved already? And if not, why? See, this is just one of the things that need changing in my opinion: this for me incomprehensible belief in the economy and it's wealth-spreading capabilities, when actually only more and more wealth concentration is happening as far as I can see...

Your example about mobiles being available to the poor is not an argument for trickle down, but an argument for overproduction which kills the planet, poor regions first. Also it is an argument for human technological development, but not for trickle down. The notion that people who get rich by taking advantage of a system that rewards greed and selfishness suddenly lose these traits when they have enough is ... well ... something I can't make myself to believe. Maybe you can convince me otherwise though, I've been known to change positions when legitimate arguments are put forward ;-)

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phoneinf (72) 6 years ago

The world population is in the billions. It's childish to believe everyone will magically be rich over night. But it's happening more and more if you take a look at statistics.

Yes phones trickle down is an argument for wealth trickle down. A king didn't even have the power a phone gives you 100 years ago.

"rewards greed and selfishness" here you are wrong and making it too Black and White. You completely take out that capitalist creates new jobs and abundance in the system. If you ever have started a business then you would realize pretty quick that you don't get far with greed and selfishness. You need win-win to succeed.

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1 vote

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zyx066 (72) 6 years ago

It's childish to believe everyone will magically be rich over night.

Yes, it is ;-) Only last time I checked we've been in the current form of market economy for the past 200 years roughly, that is to say an economy of abundance. Before that markets were based on scarcity, now we should re-adjust and conform the economy to our current reality which is that we have enough, no scratch that, we have too much of everything. We overproduce and overconsume and keep working harder, more hours, more members of the family, to keep up with this endless cycle that benefits but a few of us. Our economy is paradoxical at best and outright crinminal at worst. If trickle down works please explain:

countless empty buildings next to growing homelessness
yearly foor production to feed approximately 15 billion people when there are only 7.5 billion mouths to feed and we don't even manage that
carparks full of unsold cars against billions of unpaid car payment credits
...

I could go on and on, but I hope you get my point: If you say capitalism works, yes let's just call it what it is, you're speaking for the grand minority of the people, you always have, for centuries now. The fallacy is to think, to truly believe that capitalism is "the best we can do", because "evolution, survival of the fittest, it's our nature, greed works..." At least in my mind, I should stress that as I know I'm in the far minority in that aspect and I speak for myself alone.

But I'm glad you're still willing to engage in conversation with me, I really appreciate that :-)

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1 vote

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silentscreamer (69) 6 years ago (edited)

Oh LL is doing that? I really didnt know. Gotta talk to her then. haha

I agree. Its really hard to affect human behaviour. Even if its self destructive most wont realize before its too late. This idea would be something that wouldnt really go against anyone here, it would only be a positive addition.
Dan added a constitution to EOS which is a concept i support. Absolute freedom for everyone leads to domination of those that have more in a stake based system. Keeping it fair for everyone should always be the goal. Fairness does not mean equality in all things. It means equal opportunity.

Those 2 SBD came as rewards to you i assume. And it feels great. And now you invest those 2 SBD to get 3-4$ in upvotes. Super. And you do that again and again. What happens if 90%-100% SP gets locked up in bot delegation? There will be nowhere for those first 2 SBD to come from for the next guy.
Its important looking past the blockchain and seeing not only whos "poor" or "mid class" here, but rather in real life because its only a matter of time when blockchain dominates the world.
What then?
How will those with little ever be able to gain anything here when all the upvotes have to be purchased.

As i try to say.. Plutocracy leads to revolutions, unfairness, and a bad time overall.

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1 vote

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zyx066 (72) 6 years ago

Those 2 SBD i assume came as rewards to you i assume.

No, I invested $100 to start with and just the other day bought the last 20 Steem needed to get my SP to 100; This to be able to delegate to Helpie so I can increase the VP for voting on other peoples content, with helpie in my back.

Still, I agree with your long-term concerns as we should all, for your final argument is true. Only problem I see is that people take the behaviors they learned in the existing off-chain plutocracy to the blockchain and expect the chain itself to be the solution when it can't be. We have to change behavior, as difficult as that may be. And so we should set an example with whatever little means we have. I do this by riding the economy as it is, while only upvoting others. If upvoting others is the behavior we want to entice in people, we can only do this by example. If we don't, how can we ask this from others who have been able to ride the same economy in a more successful way?

Just my two cents. Or one cent actually, as that is the extent of my current VP... ;-)

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silentscreamer (69) 6 years ago

Well yeah. The point was in what happens with those that dont have the 100 dollars to invest. Do they not deserve to reap the benefits of this new technology.
There should be equal opportunity on the blockchain like steem where everyone has something to offer.
It shouldnt be: only those with wealth should be able to prosper with it.

I dont think Satoshi had that in mind when he created the first blockchain and im positive Dan didnt have that in mind when he made Steem.

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1 vote

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passion-ground (63) 6 years ago

Since I saw it referenced several times throughout the comment thread, I just wanted to share some brief opinions of “Free Market Capitalism” as it were…

When a body, entity, or select group with concentrated interest and influence has the ability to “move markets” and define the general narrative and thereby affect the actions of agents engaged therein, we must then concede that this is not a truly free-market for the free flow of capital, now is it?

No economy (legacy or crypto) at present or at any point in the recent past has been operating under the true tenets of a “free market economy.”

If one is willing to cede to such irrefutable truth, then one will likely cast aside any arguments in defense of “Free Market Capitalism,” for such a noble condition does not exist, and hasn’t for a really long time. All that remains is the mere aspiration toward such end and repetitive references to such.

Don’t get me wrong, I am 100% in favor of “Free Market Capitalism,” however, nothing of the sort exists anywhere I look today nor in the recent past for that matter.

Yes, perhaps echo’s of such may poke its head above the fray every now and then, but by and large, at the very core, the largest of governing bodies imposing their belief systems and dictates across both the fiat and crypto-digital economic-spheres have no such resemblance to truly “Free Markets,” not that I can discern anyway- and I’ve been paying attention to this stuff for a really long time.

Where is the ultimate and immutable anchor from which economies and “free markets” are able to organically steady and organize themselves?

For a rather brief moment in history, it was the classical “Gold Standard,” which effectively achieved such, albeit with a tender and imperfect tenacity. This “classical” standard, which I refer, should not be confused with “Bretton Woods” or any other such maligned quasi-gold-standard arrangements that have been politically experimented with throughout history.

Until such time as an exclusive, objective, and arbitrary “Rule of Law” and “Golden Rule” provides the foundation for all participating agents to act upon their own behalf and in their own best interest magically resurfaces free of concentrated influence and narratives, we shall, in my view, remain subject to the “whims of the whales” in every realm of our feeble existence – be it in the fading legacy realm, or amid the new-fangled crypto realm, or anywhere else on the spectrum of self-delusion going forward…

Before attempting to address all of these “tactical inconsistencies,” it may be of benefit to first understand the grander view of why - and in which all this particular nuanced discussion is taking place in the first place, and to then strike at the very root of such malfeasant origins so as to formulate a more enduring and permanent solution to the intractable problems tossed our way in virtual perpetuity.

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2 votes

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silentscreamer (69) 6 years ago

I agree. Pure market capitalism does not exist nor did it ever. The idea exists, and the system in place very much is built around that idea.
The thing is that we should strive towards it because its the best system we have while never achieving it.
"Free market" means that anyone has the opportunity in participating in it. Once you take away that ability and make the system "only for the few" you arent really talking free market any more.
An exchange between parties needs to be able to exist.
If Steem goes forward in the same direction as it seems to be going, you take away that opportunity and create an exchange of only one commodity. Money.
The majority cannot participate in that exchange.
Nothing has value except money.
You created a planned economy by those with the power to mold it as such, essentially a non-market.

People tend to believe that by making those with the most monetary power have even more makes us all somehow better off. It doesnt even in the slightest.
What positive effect is there for the rest if Freedom, Fyrst, therealwolf, etc. make more money, the owners get more SP delegation. Absolutely nothing. Trickle down economics is a ruse, a cheat made up by plutocrats.
Making the whales more wealthy doesnt mean a single thing for a minnow (the only exception is those that curate).
Nothing trickles down and no incentive is created for them to give something back especially in a system where anonymity is king. They will just hoard it.

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2 votes

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phoneinf (72) 6 years ago (edited)

Nice emojis in the Title!

Well clearly they are working on the future with SMTs and an Oracle to see how that will go. That will say they will try to verify that a person is a 'Good Person'. So currently I think people should just focus on growing their influence. This platform is still too small at the moment to focus on the minor things. There is probably less than 50,000 real humans here and I know that the core team behind Steemit is preparing for bigger things at the moment.

And this whole process will take years and years to develop. I rather have the core Steemit team to focus on larger things than things as Trending right now. It takes a long time to test out new stuff because Developers and Geeks need months of testing to get a result in. And since not that many use Steemit at the moment the test sample can still be too small. Let's see how things goes!

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1 vote

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silentscreamer (69) 6 years ago (edited)

Well sure. Lets see what SMTs do... But still, i think the Trending page, outside the technical aspects of blockchain, is the single most important thing on Steemit. That is the face of Steem. Its the store front. And if you put rotten apples in the store front no one will care what goodies you have hidden under the counter.

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1 vote

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phoneinf (72) 6 years ago

I would say the most important thing is the code that runs the core Steem Blockchain and that it flows smooth. The store front will be improved since as you say it would make it more attractive for mainstream adoption! But I do not even think a good store front at the moment would be good since this Blockchain is not ready for mainstream adoption. It's better if it becomes more mature first.

That would say you first would need a solid user base in the middle before you on-board millions. That would say you need to create stronger connections between users first. So you can simulate a middle class that exist in the real world. After that system is put into place now you can truly on-board more. Since wealth has been moved from major whales into mid level managers. Would say that it's going to take at least 3 years to do that since you need to trickle down a lot of wealth into dedicated users!

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silentscreamer (69) 6 years ago (edited)

I mean yes, code comes first, thats the technical aspect i talk about.
But your point on maturing first i cant agree with. Are you saying that our "store front" needs to look like this until further notice?
You mature through changes like this. The wheels turning beneath it all is rocket science to many and not the attraction aspect for wider adoption.
We will only get a solid user base if your store front is nice and good looking.

Trickle down does not work. Trickle down economics have been proven a failure. Bottom-up works much better for everyone.
We have the wealthy just getting wealthier so you cannot expect the middle class to exist any time soon if ever. The distance between the classes is getting bigger every day.
Its been shown that the wealthy rarely share but rather hoard for every break they get.
You might think bots allow for growth but in actuality they widen the margin.

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phoneinf (72) 6 years ago

Trickle down works. Even a poor person has now access to same Technology as the rich. That will say a smartphone. So technology is trickling down value to everyone. It's cheaper to get an audience than it used to be. More people have access to work for themselves and generate value.

And yes I'm saying our "store front" needs to look like this at the moment. Since there are bigger things to focus on for the moment. A solid user base is not needed for the moment. In 3 years sure. If they have worked out the bugs and optimised the system for mainstream adoption.

The middle class could be richer if they wanted but the middle class mentality is to play it safe and be in the middle. I know these people you tell them about Steem Blockchain and they are too prideful to try it out. So they stay average and in the middle. That will say it's a mentality that they have. They love stability. They do not enjoy dramatic changes or risky stuff.

And even if the rich get richer on paper the cost of experiences are going down. So it doesn't really matter that much if someone has more zeros somewhere since the cost of all is going down.

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k0wsk1 (63) 6 years ago

Having this as a Chrome addon would be awesome. If it was a change to the website itself I think the 'new trending' page would instead be taken over by powerful circle-jerks and, as you say, people otherwise managing to "game the system" (they always will).

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1 vote

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phoneinf (72) 6 years ago

This is capitalism. The free market! I can promise that it's better than any filter system that would be like Socialism or Communism.

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toddrjohnson (54) 6 years ago

Yes, that seems correct. It just doesn't sit well with those of us who see how much the current system hurts people through no fault of their own. However, there is little question above the dangers of monopolies, monopsonies, rent seeking and legislative capture on a "free market". Steem seems to have all of this happening to the point where its goals of rewarding quality content are not being met at all.

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1 vote

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phoneinf (72) 6 years ago

Hurts how? If you want to succeed play the game. Life is competition and selection. Work hard and smart. And invest money to get ahead. It's that simple. If the market doesn't reward you then that means you are not good at playing the game. Learn and become better.

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aschatria (61) 6 years ago

For sure and without any doubt, it would look very interesting. I am afraid that some people would be very surprised. The thing would be even more interesting if they could grind down the whole history down the lane from a blogchain and subtract values added by bots. A popularity and visibility in Steemit would look completely different.
Steemit voting is more like a gamified fluent investment with the values given in a current moment, so there is too many things to take in consideration, but for many who know how to use this system it works just fine.
Extension for your idea might give you something, but not everyone uses just the bidbots to do it, you have the individual accounts, trails... etc.
If nothing, this is an interesting idea.

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1 vote

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silentscreamer (69) 6 years ago

Pa hvala na lijepom komentaru. Rijetko zadnje vrijeme navracaju Hrvati na moj blog. :D
Pa eto, vidim da si hobby programer pa slobodno se bacis na ovo. Haha.
Ma pricala sam sa dosta ljudi koji su mi pomogli u nekim stvarima ovdje koji dobro barataju sa Steem SQLom i ucinilo mi se da ako vec mogu povuci statistiku koja eliminira botove iz samih rezultata pretrazivanja baze podataka, da je moguce filtrirati te podatke vizualno u plugin. (naravno idealnije bi bilo da Steemit,inc to napravi)

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