RE: Steemhunt Initiates Account Based Voting Ranking System
Again thanks for a good comment.
But this photo shows how flawed this is. A person with 3 Steem Power influenced my contribution he bumped up the score 50%! But me with 5500 Steem Power has no power? Okay what is in my mind then? How can I game the system. Since this is not fair. Why can a random probably troll account bump up my score 50%? This creates more scammy shady stuff for sure.
Someone that holds 0.0 VESTS has more power than my millions of VESTS. Fair? Sure. And oh yes I have people that have me on autovote since they know I produce quality content. Is that being rewarded in new Steemhunt? Nope! All my original real people on Steemit that autovote me works 100 times harder but they do not get into the Steemhunt ranks. Only new troll accounts with low rep and close to 0 investment in Steem.
That’s not a flaw. That’s by design.
I know that may seem harsh but it is to create a more level, independent from SP, Steemhunt platform.
The matrix may be tweaked at any point tho. For now it is an initial release. As this post also said, more elements will be added. If we notice that for example account farms will start to game, changes will happen.
But SP is not a factor anymore in the calculation. Not beyond in how far your SP may influence how high your upvote % is. But long term the thinking there is that hunters and Steemhunt curators are first Steemhunt users rather than think SP.
The positive in that is that those who have a large stake (HUNT token stake in the future) and also HUNT CURATION SCORE (HCS) and who understand the Steemhunt will still give a 100% upvote.
But we will analyse what happens and the matrix may be corrected at any time we think we need to tweak it. Maybe with more levels, maybe with more 1/n in the multiplicator. That is still to be decided.
Currently Steemhunt tries to create a more level Steemhunt platform, rather independent (but not fully yet) from Steem(it)/busy/etc.
Summarized: think Steemhunt, not Steem. Once won reputation system released the Steemhunt ranking is independent of SP/Steem rep. Independent except that high SP may mean lower upvote for some Steemians.
Thanks,
Sure I understand. But this also force users to try to find circle jerk friends. And I don't really see the incentive why anyone would upvote anyone outside their friendzone now. Since now it will be all about make your own Steemhunt post. And find as many 60 rep people as possible and just focus on your own group. There will no longer be any random cool upvotes you will get. Why would anyone do that? The post will not really get boosted that much. You need many insider friends now!
Since there will be no incentive to do random acts of kindness to cool products. Since it now all just relies on the big vote from Steemhunt. What will happen is now people really will create groups of 10 people and they all will go and upvote eachothers posts only. Since the reward in monetary reward will only be worth it from the big upvote from Steemhunt. This will make all profits rely on Steemhunt instead of it coming from the community.
Circle jerks will be handicapped by the future diversity matrix. ;)
The reason why the release of ABV was suddenly prioritized was to prevent the impact of trails and also to avoid some people locking out the top spot each day. As such it was not a fair system to base the Steemhunt ranking upvote on highest Steem reward. And mid- to long-term that would have stunted growth. Imagine 5 whales locking out top 10 daily.
This is an initial release. Work to create a more organic and fair upvoting behavior is an ongoing process. :)
But that also creates another problem.
So you can't have your friends upvote your post? That will become a massive cat and mouse game. And it will annoy people a lot. Is it really that bad if someone is number 1 a lot? Do like dtube and lower the rewards then for that specific account so you can't abuse it. Not punish but slightly decrease it for highly successful users.
Also with this voting system a person can lower his voting power to 1% and spend no money and give out 100% 3.0 rewards I think the way I see it work.
People want attention in this attention economy. And they want to buy for it so self boost something will grow more. WildSpark from Synereo offers you to boost content. A 100% organic ranking system is very idealistic and perhaps it will work in the future. But currently you need the investors and influencers. The big names that hold lots of Steem Power. You can boost your content on YouTube, Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. But not on Steemhunt? It's going against what the market wants to do.
It needs to be combined with the rep of an account. Steem Power needs to have power in the rankings. To completely try to cut it off before SMTs and the Hunt tokens are able to be cashed out is going to be like cut off blood in a human body. At the same time as lazy passive Steemit investors delegate their Steem Power and is being rewarded with Hunt Tokens. That will say Steemhunt loves their Steem Power but no other user is allowed to use it in rankings.
First: stop thinking Steem. Friendships on Steem do not automatically need to be adopted by a new platform. Remember SMTs which, like Good Person Token, can implement their own algo.
Second: No system will be as simple as “not upvoting your friends anymore”. That is an element we are aware of, but the friendship will have to happen on Steemhunt. Not via Autovoting.
That is a problem but it is mostly a problem if one can not leave thinking Steem behind. It is Steemhunt tho, not Steem. Steem is the platform Steemhunt is built on but it isn’t completely taken over/in consideration.
Lastly: It is a process in development we will constantly monitor and iron out kinks when they happen. Complicated and sophisticated AI may be integrated at some point. I can not really explain all possible options in some comments tho.
Will any system ever be 100% perfect? No.
Will we try to evolve to the fairest possible Steemhunt platform? Yes. Everything will be monitored and elements like friendships will be a constant consideration in assessment and in the decision of what algo is applied. But there will also be people who will argue that friendships are a form of circle jerking. So it will always be thin and sometimes even difficult lines to thread.
Most importantly tho, at the core of everything, will be Steemhunt and not the Steem (account) with all it brings with it. Different silo. A vertical on top of Steem but not adopting all of Steem to base its own rankings, and thus rewards, on.
It is important to understand that Steemhunt first [SMT silo] ideology. There is no obligation to inherit and adopt the whole Steem mechanics, such as for example influence of vests and reputation. Those are elements which can be used within the Steem ecosphere and as such a whole userbase with reputation metric even is available to tap in to for new platforms. But it is not required to fully adopt those components.
Once you can see that thinking [ugh] drives the evolution you will be able to understand more why things are happening. Your following/rep is a bonus but not a guarantee on Steemhunt/any future vertical built on Steem. Not an obligation for the platform to integrate what those bring with them.
Any platform can decide to not consider vests and Steem reputation and instead develop its own system. That is what is currently happening on/with Steemhunt. And Steemhunt will eventually be driven by HUNT economy (token), all while still also rewarding in vests (SP) since that is a core mechanic of SMT (and the Steem blockchain). May I recommend you check out Ned’s post about the Good Person Token/SMT he pre-announced some weeks ago (apologies am on mobile and between places so I don’t have it quickly at hand here).
Thanks for a great comment and mature discussion really appreciate it,
And I know your team works hard on creating an amazing platform. Will be interesting to see how it goes.
But I just think this sounds worrying "Everything will be monitored and elements like friendships will be a constant consideration in assessment and in the decision of what algo is applied. But there will also be people who will argue that friendships are a form of circle jerking. So it will always be thin and sometimes even difficult lines to thread."
Having to monitor friends and stalk what you upvote really? Use algo? See how that worked on YouTube. Pure disaster. YouTube values the algo above people. Having to monitor every move human does is going from the baseline of humans can't be trusted. That will put people in a mode in look for flaws in humans. That they will try to scam things. This is not building a good core foundation. It goes completely against the Bitcoin and Blockchain movement. Why do people like these platforms? Freedom and not Big Brother government being above them all the time.
Friendships happen across platforms these days. And you for sure shouldn't be rewarded for hunting down friends that upvote eachothers quality posts. That will surely create lots of toxic energy. And I know your project tries to distance themselves completely from Steem at the moment but I think it's way too early to do that. Should wait until SMT system is coming out and it has been tested properly before doing a major switch.
I think a more humane approach would be to trust people more and talk to them. Use capitalism to fuel the engine and also let Steem influencer have a part in the rankings by giving out money. People love their influence. The Intellect tries to fix humans by looking at them as a problem. This won't make people feel free and empowered.
My first day on Steemhunt I got a rank of 15 with the old system. Since a Steemit user came and influenced the rankings. A hard working Steemian. Now in the new system he would have way less power. The 2nd day I got a ranking of around 130. Even when I had a better post. It demotivates passionate Steemians that have invested a lot in the platform. Clearly this group should have more influence. You let them have influence by delegate. So they should have influence in rankings too. This is still using the Steem platform a lot. So distance is not going to work.
Again thanks for an adult conversation I will be following this project with great interest. Can be interesting to see how it will go.
If you saw how much Steem is gamed for money (I have dust accounts trailing my comments just to frontrunning the Steemhunt upvote, around 30% of submitted hunts are plagiarized, etc etc) I think you would understand the need for those measures.
When I say everything will be monitored that means that when we release something new we need to keep an eye on its impact, on its effect and because there is money in play we also need to monitor gaming. I hate to say this but a small minority will do everything to maximize even the smallest profit.
We do not think that people are bad de facto but we know that there’s a small group who just can’t resist temptation.
Now it would be easy to hit those (until they find the next hole to use) but that can also damage what you mentioned before, friendships, so that’s something we need to monitor because if not you take use to the cleaners over that. 🤷♂️
YouTube has a for profit focus in which they know what content sells best to premium advertisers. Our focus is for fairness and to minimize gaming the rankings. Our focus is for the users (no system will ever please everyone), their focus is for the shareholders.
Thanks for a great discussion. I hope later I can turn this in a post. 👊