Biological underpinnings of Human sexuality(part 2 - bypassing the evolutionary filters)

in #steemstem6 years ago (edited)

There is no such thing as good gene or bad gene. There are no superior or inferior genes. It is only a matter of which genes provide an advantage to individuals in a given population, in a certain environmental context.
-As reiterated by many biologists.


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Lets put some colors into evolution
Image by geralt | CC0

The evolution doesn't care about strategies one uses to maximize his/her copies in next generation. All that matters, between life and death of any organism, be it a bacteria or a human, is their reproductive success. Now, it's all great until you have a mutation that increases your libido, or increases your lifespan(reproductive lifespan to be precise), or the litter size , as compared to other individuals of your species. But, what about factors that produces phenotypes, that reduce the chances of reproduction of an individual? Well over the course of evolution such biological factors, be it genetic or epigenetic should be eradicated from population? Right? No, not always. Well, evolution doesn't just work on individuals, it majorly works on populations. The reductionist approach is not going to work with evolutionary mechanism, so keep it aside and walk with me for rest of the article.


Previously on biological underpinnings of human sexuality

In Biological underpinnings of human sexuality(part 1), we discussed the biological factors that contribute to sexual orientation. We talked about how manipulating genes that effect sexual dimorphism of brain anatomy and neurochemistry can switch sexul orientation. We also discussed how genes and environment(specifically, maternal environment) can interact via epigenetics and affect sexual orientation. We also talked in brief about mathematics of complex multigenic traits, under influence of environment. However, we stopped our discussion at the following question - how does something like homosexuality, pass through evolutionary filters?

Understanding the evolutionary filters

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Traits pass through evolutionary selection filters. But some detrimental traits like T1 somehow manages to bypass them.
@scienceblocks

When it comes to sexual orientation, people often argue - how can something that makes one lose interest in mating with opposite sex(homosexuality), and hence reduce their probability to even have an offspring, be thought of in Darwinian terms. How can such a trait persist in course of evolution, and not just in humans but across so many species? And, add to it the fact that its incidence seems to be stable in populations over time! Boggles the mind. Doesn't it?

A matter of dosage - hetrozygote advantage

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The hetrozygote advantage of sickle cell anemia allele.
@scienceblocks

Well, but homosexuality is not the only trait defying the basic common sense. There are a lot of examples where the gene that is detrimental in one situation, provides an advantage in another environment. Take example of simple heterozygote advantage of sickle cell anemia. The sickle cell anemia is caused by mutation in hemoglobin gene, which causes red blood cells to have abnormal shape; and hence all the maladies associated with improper transport of oxygen. However, it is a recessive disease, which means that if and only if you have two mutated copies of hemoglobin gene on chromosome 11 you will get the disease. However, the same mutation is detested by plasmodium, a parasite that lives in RBC and causes malaria. It so happens that in geographical areas where malaria is prevalent both normal people and people with sickle cell anemia die early. But blessed are the people who are heterozygous - which means they have one copy of mutated hemoglobin, and one normal copy. The heterozygotes die neither of malaria nor of sickle cell disease(see Kwiatkowski, 2005). Another example of heterozygote advantage is mutated CFTR gene that causes cystic fibrosis, but protects heterozygotes against cholera(Rodman and Zamudio, 1991).

This might give an impression that hetrozygote advantage may only exist when there is a disease in the environment. However, that is definitely not a pre-requisite. Take example from sheep here. Mutation in BMP15 and GDF9 gene for instance, makes the sheep infertile. But have one mutant copy and one normal copy and these sheep will have higher ovulation and litter size compared to sheep which has both normal copies(Gemmell and Slate, 2006).

Pineapple is good, so is pizza but pineapple on pizza - depends on who is eating it.

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Some genes many confer advantage when inherited alone, but in combination with other genes and environment may give rise to autoimmune disorders. Such is the case of HLA-B27 and Alkolysing Spondylytis(AS)
-@scienceblocks

Moreover, just like heterozygote advantage the entire network of genes may result in different phenotypes in different individuals. Well, based on gene-gene-environment interactions that these individuals will encounter. Take example of a gene called Human leukocyte antigen B27(HLA-B27). Having HLA-B27 allele makes one highly susceptible of getting autoimmune diseases, including alkolysing spondylitis(where immune calls degrade the back bone), inflammatory bowel disease and psoriasis. What is intriguing here is that while aprrox over 90% of people who have alkolysing spondylitis have HLA-B27, but HLA-B27 don't explain it all. Tgat is, only a few people with HLA-B27 gets alkolysing spondylitis. Turns out that you need other mutations, along with HLA-B27 to get the disease(Evans et al., 2011). However, what do people who have HLA-B27 get as compensation ? Well, how about resistance against onset of AIDS and rapid clearance of hepatitis C virus(Neumann-Haefelin et al., 2010). Pretty nice for people with risky sexual behaviour, if they can avoid viruses, no?

Anyway, the story doesn't end at gene-gene interaction. Say a child inherits HLA-B27 from his/her parents. They may grow up to be perfectly normal, without any autoimmune disease and may be resistant against many viruses as well. But, on the other hand, the sibling of the child who inherited the same gene gets maltreated by the parents or get bullied at school in very early age. The second sibling will have higher probability of getting alkolysing spondylitis. In fact stressful environment had been linked to autoimmune diseases, including those which test positive for HLA-B27(Lin et al., 2009, Imbierowicz and Eagle, 2003). Though exact mechanism needs to be dechipered but one possibility is either via epigenetic regulation of HLA-B27 itself or via one of the interacting genes, such as those in Interlukin-23 pathway. The point being that detrimental genes may not be detrimental alone, but only in combination with other genes and environment. In this case they will manage to survive in populations and detrimental effects will appear now and then, at certain frequency.

A matter of family

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Evolutionary Bro Code - Kin selection
Image by amyelizabethquinn | CC0

What would you do for your family? Would you die for your brother/sister, what about your cousin? Reproducing yourself is not the only way to pass on your genes. Yet another way is to make sure that your kin reproduce with high efficiency, while you play a passive role to make it efficient. Like in many species that live in kin groups only alpha mates with most females. Threotically, since you share 50% genes with your sibling, then if two of your siblings produce a lot of kids, you may pass on all of your genes. This forms the basis of Kin selection. But what determines which kin will be kind and altruistic, and which one will be mean and selfish. Which kin will be dominant and which will be subordinate in social hierarchy? The sheer fact that you can selectively breed animals such as mice for dominant vs submissive behaviour; and even modify that behaviour via targeting gene expression changes in some cases, hints towards both genetic and epigenetic mechanisms. (See Sibly and Curnow, 2017, Kooij and Sandi, 2015, Nesher et al., 2015). Perhaps,
not all evolutionary mechanisms exist to maximize genes of each individual in the population, though that is the most basic scenario. In some cases strategies that enhance reproductive success of kin also comes handy.

A trade off between survival and attractiveness - sexual selection

Then, not every trait have to increase reproductive success directly. This is where sexual selection comes into picture. Take example of peacock's tail or that of brightly colored fish. While being colorful can increase the risk of predation and hence decrease the survival and chance to reproduce, it is still preferred mate choice by many female fish(Heinen-Kay et al., 2015). So genes that reduce the codefitness of some individuals, will still be passed on to next generation - as long as it is what females like.

What these examples are telling us that not every gene that seems detrimental in one context, would be detrimental in another. Gene-gene and gene-enviroment interactions can be beefitial in one context and maladaptive in another. Also, the genes that may reduce reproductive success of one individual may indirectly benefit their kin to pass on their genes. Genes that reduce the fitness, may "turn on" the opposite sex. But, what about homosexuality? Why does it persist at stable levels in population even though it reduces the reproductive fitness of homosexual individuals? Does it provide some kind of heterozygote advantage. Do some mutations that causes homosexuality in one gene-gene network provide benifit in another network? Can genes/or epigenetic modifications that causes homosexuality provide any advantage to hetrosexual kin? What about heterosexual family members of homosexuals, are they more attractive to opposite sex? What possible useful purpose could homosexual behaviour serve, if any? Let's start by looking at role of homosexual behaviour in different species.


Birds do it, bees do it, even educated flees do it. Let's do it. Let's learn about love(from the animals)

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Biological role of same-sex behaviour in different species
Illustrated by @scienceblocks using following images
Bonobos, Fish, Love and homosexuality, Albatross, flies
CC0

Bond for companionship

When it comes to telling stories, Flinches have never disappointed us. They told a story to Darwin, and Zebra flinches have something to tell us, as well. Well, to begin with zebra flinches are pair bonding species. Which means, they fall in love once in life and stay with that mate for lifetime. Their biology is dedicated to forming a lifelong companionship. But what happens when you bias the sex ratio artificially? Looks like they form a bond with other flinches of same sex. But it's not just about availability, because once the bond is formed it seems irreversible. For instance, when bonded male-male pairs are introduced to new females, many of them choose not to cheat on their same-sex partners. However, females are a bit more flexible(Elie et al., 2011). But how do you explain any benefit of a choice that may decrease their reproductive potential? Well let's just say companionship increases probability of survival, of those who find any companion at all vs those who don't. Then this gives an edge to survivors, if they at any point opt to cheat on their same-sex partners vs those who did not survive that long. But then why don't all male-male bonds tend to cheat? Well, possibly because the selective pressure for pair bonding might be acting via separate route. So there would exist a trade-off between strong bonds vs flexilibility in homosexual couples. Second, this is an artificial lab experiment and don't represent what may be selected for in a long run, in wild.

Finding companion to nurture offsprings together.

Another example of sex-bias in population causing birds to opt to be lesbians, exist in sea gulls. Yeah the same gay gulls everybody created a fuss about in 1970s. Well, when there are more females and a not many males around, it looks as if all good guys are taken. But then there are these gay girls(read gulls) in the population who don't care about males, but form a bond with other females. Well, to begin with the same sex female-female couples get companionship. But they also do something else. They take turn to lay eggs. And sometimes they go and mate with one of the males in the neighborhood and lay viable eggs. The male can stay busy in his heterosexual bond, the female-female pair manages without him to raise the kids. And, of course, females who form this female-female companionship have more kids and pass on their genes, as compared to females who opt to wait for a male. Albatross story isn't much different either(Young et al., 2014).

But, what do these birds mean for humans? Can homosexuality, at least in humans females, be attributed to alloparenting? Well, given a more fluid distribution of sexual orientation in females, compared to the bimodal pattern in males, Khule and Radtke, thinks so. According to them alloparenting might have been an advantage to our female ancestors in hard times. Though, one must be careful not to assume that to be sole advantage of same-sex behaviour. Humans and many primates are indeed capable of giving parental care without necessarily building same-sex companionship. Nonetheless, there is no reason to rule out the benefits of companionship and alloparenting, by tuning sexuality a bit. More like have too much of it and you may not pass on your own genes directly, but might help your siblings genes to pass on by helping their kids if needed. Have it in the right amount and you can do both.

Even if your homosexual brother is not be the best wingman, his genes might be.

Talking of right amount, what if, if you have a situation where having a right amount of expression of some genes makes you more attractive to women. However, having too much or too little of it makes you attracted towards same sex. But can any tendency diverting away from conventional sexual behavior, ever be attractive to opposite sex?

Well, Poecilia mexicana, a fresh water fish, comes to mind. One of the evolutionary strategy in nature for choosing male mates, is by copying preferences of other females. Like if a male is already validated by other females you don't have to work hard in comptemplating if he is a good investment or not. Turns out, in Poecilia the strategy is extended to considering male-male homosexual behaviour, as well(Bierbach et al., 2012).

For humans things are more complicated than it is for the fish. While on one hand more masculine features may be attractive to some women, but then we are not a tournament species who would just mate based on size of the male. A good part of human mating preferences also include looking for a partner who would make a good caregiver. According to Qazi, the low dose of genes that increases feminine behaviour might be a signal of a father that provides more care. However, having too much dose of these genes may make males either unattractive and for sure not interested in mating with females. On a funny note, maybe, that what mothers immune system achives by targeting the antigen from Y chromosome. Like - your Y chromosome is fine but stay in limits, I want my grandkids to get some good affection from you, as well.

Factors that make brothers gay, may make sisters more fertile

In the previous blog, I told you that altering the sexual dimorphism in the brain, alters sexuality. We also explored the fact that how male homosexuality in particular, is biased towards maternal relatives. We also saw that, X chromosome inactivation in mothers of homosexual men is biased. Which raises the question, that did the trait survived in course of evolution - because it was passed on by mothers who are themselves not affected, or did it also have some positive effect for females themselves? Like, if your brain becomes too feminized as male you may lack interest in mating with opposite sex. Nonetheless, the same biological factors can make female more attracted to males and might even increase their fertility.

Yet again, fruitfly comes to rescue. Fruitfly told us that genes genes that regulate brain dimorphism, also regulate sexuality. Hence, Hoskins et al., 2015, picked fruit flies that displayed male homosexuality and tested their female siblings for fecundity(or ability to produce abundance of offsprings). Turns out, that female fertility was higher in relatives of males showing same-sex behaviour. Sexually antagonistic selection at least partly explained the same-sex behaviour in flies(the other part being heyrozygote advantage).

Well, guess what! sexually antagonistic selection is a hypothesis, that has been proposed for human male homosexuality, as well. In fact, Ciani et al., 2008, did some mathematical calculation in population genetics, to propose that this model of selection will fit best for humans. Then, in 2012 Ciani and Pellizzari, went ahead and measured fecundity of human females. Maternal aunts and grandmothers of homosexual men turned out to be more fecund than those of hetrosexual men. Though the authors took care to avoid the faternal birth order effect(see previous blog), but it can still form an alternative hypothesis. It is possible that it is rather a gene in females, that causes females to have more offsprings on average, increases the chance of feternal birth order effect. Though keep in mind that this effect only explains part of male homosexuality. The other part can still be via genes and its expression levels regulating brain feminization, which leads to antagonistic outcomes in males and females.

If only humans solved matters outside court by sex... Oh snap!

Finally, if we are talking about any aspect of sexuality, we just can't overlook bonobos. Why? Well, they are genetically very close to us, their sexual behaviour is close to ours(or they are really inspired by human Kamasutra), plus they are hypersexual beings. If you are an primatologist watching bonobos, you will be appalled to see that in bonobos groups, everybody has sex with everyone. They don't discriminate based on gender, class, race, religion(oh wadit they might not have those many award concepts). Nevertheless, the question that we want to ask is - what do they use same-sex behaviour for? Looks like, they do it for social cause, to keep the group in harmony, reduce tension, and increase bonding within group members(see Genty et al., 2015). *Imagine two random humans in office go like - hey I am really pissed at you, let's have sex... Oh wait! *

Now, humans don't predominantly have sex with strangers for social reasons. But, what if homosexual men are more likely to help their kins as compared to hetrosexual men. While brothers of homosexual men may look more attractive to females, the homosexuals siblings themselves, who do not pass their genes may enhance survival of their nice and nephew(Vasey and VanderLaan, 2009).

Summary

Well, finding the exact evolutionary purpose of any trait is really hard. At best we can make guesses about why any trait might have evolved. And it becomes really interesting, if that trait is detrimental to reproductive success and still maintained and that too at a stable rate in population. One such trait is homosexuality. It is considered a Darwinian puzzle because it makes one lose interest in opposite sex. This loss of interest is bound to cost a lot to reproductive fitness of homosexual individuals. Yet, homosexuality is seen across many species and its incidence appear to be stable in populations.

In this article, we explored this mystery. We discovered how genes that can be detrimental in one situation can benefit in others. We talked about how dosage of genes can matter. We saw the same genes can either lead to benefit or a disaster based on maternal and early childhood environment. Finally we saw that there exists a trade-off between natural selection and sexual selection. So while a certain trait may reduce the reproductive fitness of few individuals, it may really come handy for others.

In the light of the understanding that we gained from these examples, we explored the possible benefits that different species could gain from their respective same-sex behaviours. We saw that some species reap the benefits of companionship, while others use it for getting care for their offsprings. In those scenarios, it seems like having a companion is better strategy than having no one at all. We saw the possibility that same sex behaviour can increase the attractiveness to females in certain species. Which I think in humans can be under the control of dosage. Low dosage may signal more care for offspring, while high dose of the trait would be no offspring at all. In those lines we also saw a possibility that homosexuals trait can also provide some extra care for their niece and nephews. Finally, we explored the fact that male homosexuality being more frequent within maternal family, can be a hint of sexually antagonistic benefit to females.

Now, I know that I did skip through a lot of other uses of same-sex behaviour in animal kingdom. Such as mimicking opposite sex with siblings to train each other. But you can definitely explore those. The point I was trying to make is that just because a trait seem to be a Darwinian dead end in first look, doesn't mean it is a dead end. If it is maintained in population it might have an alternative indirect benefit.

With that remark I will end this article. However, if you are interested read the science and society section, where I discuss the science of homosexuality on Facebook.


Science and society.

Recently, the supreme court of India, decriminalized homosexuality. In this regard, I saw a lot of random controversy on social media, majorly regarding the biological understanding of homosexuality. This is what motivated me to do these series of posts. In order to do this I created a post on a facebook group, the progressive Indians(TPI). The post asked people to think about ways by which homosexuality might not be a Darwinian dead end after all. I would briefly discuss their contribution and review them, before ending this post.

The answer I liked the most was given by a physicist, Debjyoti. His answer, though limited to Mendelian traits is in line with what we have been discussing. He says that it is not necessary that detrimental traits are wiped out, they can be carried as recessive traits and stay alive in population. Now he is not not wrong, but to passively carry a recessive trait in population, the cost should not be reproductive fitness. Because that will eventually reduce the frequency of the recessive allele. Unless only a certain combination multiple alleles gives rise to detrimental phenotype, or else if recessive allele is beneficial in another context.

Prassana points out -

Advantage of homosexuality might be relatively less competition for the resources for the future generations due to homosexuals not reproducing.

I mean, that could be the case. But, then why would genes that deprive one of resources did not wipe out? We discussed this possibility, in terms of kin selection. That is if you let your kin reproduce, while you make sure that they pass on enough number of genes, to cover almost all the combination of your genes.

Soumya(who has a criminal psychology background), points to the both kin selection and sexy grandmother hypothesis. Though, her concern is that they don't gives us a concrete explanation. And I agree, it is really hard to get concrete explanation from evolutionary perspective, given we can't reproduce what happened in billions of years of evolution, in lab. The best we can do is observe what happens in other simplistic models such as fruitfly and test the prediction in humans. Also, there is no restriction as to why only one concrete explanation may tell the entire story. None of the possibilities we discussed above have to be mutually elusive. The only issue here is that, the best we have to offer are possibilities(unless I have a time machine, and permission to alter the timeline I made the time machine in - maybe we can create a sexy grandmother paradox, as opposed to boring grandfather paradox).

Finally, Sazi proposes that homosexuality might be a way to overcome sexual frustration. He points the high frequency of same-sex coupulations that happens in the prison. Looks a lot like those flinches we discussed - you bias the sex ratio and make them opt for same-sex partner. Except, there is one issue. What happens in prison might be just some sort of a dominance behaviour or as Sazi says sexual frustration. Because, unlike birds and the homosexuality within inmates may not form a romantic bond and they may not even be attracted towards each other. And in many cases it would just be rape. So, I don't know if there is a way to extrapolate the prison behaviour tosame sex attraction amd orientation. However,given the fact that not all inmates may willingly participate in same-sex behaviour, I won't completely rule out the possibility to learn some biology from those who do.


References

  1. Kwiatkowski DP. How Malaria Has Affected the Human Genome and What Human Genetics Can Teach Us about Malaria. American Journal of Human Genetics. 2005;77(2):171-192.

  2. Rodman DM, Zamudio S. The cystic fibrosis heterozygote--advantage in surviving cholera? Med Hypotheses. 1991 Nov;36(3):253-8. PubMed PMID: 1724059..

  3. Gemmell NJ, Slate J. Heterozygote Advantage for Fecundity. Scheffler K, ed. PLoS ONE. 2006

  4. Evans DM, Spencer CCA, Pointon JJ, et al. Interaction between ERAP1 and HLA-B27 in ankylosing spondylitis implicates peptide handling in the mechanism for HLA-B27 in disease susceptibility. Nature genetics. 2011.

  5. Neumann-Haefelin C, Timm J, Schmidt J, et al. Protective Effect of Human Leukocyte Antigen B27 in Hepatitis C Virus Infection Requires the Presence of a Genotype-Specific Immunodominant CD8+ T-Cell Epitope. Hepatology (Baltimore, Md). 2010

  6. Lin YC, Liang TH, Chen WS, Lin HY. Differences between juvenile-onset ankylosing spondylitis and adult-onset ankylosing spondylitis. J Chin Med Assoc.
    2009

  7. Imbierowicz K, Egle UT. Childhood adversities in patients with fibromyalgia and somatoform pain disorder. Eur J Pain. 2003;7(2):113-9. PubMed PMID: 12600792.

  8. Sibly RM, Curnow RN. Genetic polymorphisms between altruism and selfishness close to the Hamilton threshold rb = c. Royal Society Open Science. 2017

  9. Kooij, Sandi, The genetics of social hierarchies,
    Current Opinion in Behavioral Sciences, 2015.

  10. Elie, Julie & Mathevon, Nicolas & Vignal, Clémentine. (2011). Same-sex pair-bonds are equivalent to male–female bonds in a life-long socially monogamous songbird. Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology - BEHAV ECOL SOCIOBIOL. 65. 10.1007/s00265-011-1228-9

  11. Young LC, VanderWerf EA. Adaptive value of same-sex pairing in Laysan albatross. Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences. 2014

  12. Kuhle BX, Radtke S. Born both ways: the alloparenting hypothesis for sexual fluidity in women. Evol Psychol. 2013 Apr 7;11(2):304-23. PubMed PMID: 23563096..

  13. Bierbach D, Jung CT, Hornung S, Streit B, Plath M. Homosexual behaviour increases male attractiveness to females. Biol Lett. 2012 Dec 12;9(1):20121038. doi: 10.1098/rsbl.2012.1038. Print 2013 Feb 23. PubMed PMID: 23234866; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC3565526.

  14. Qazi Rahman, Glenn D. Wilson, Born gay? The psychobiology of human sexual orientation, Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 34, Issue 8, 2003

  15. Hoskins JL, Ritchie MG, Bailey NW. A test of genetic models for the evolutionary maintenance of same-sex sexual behaviour. Proc Biol Sci. 2015 Jun 22;282(1809):20150429. doi: 10.1098/rspb.2015.0429. PubMed PMID: 26019160; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC4590448.

  16. Camperio Ciani A, Cermelli P, Zanzotto G (2008) Sexually Antagonistic Selection in Human Male Homosexuality. PLoS ONE 3(6): e2282. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002282

  17. Camperio Ciani A, Pellizzari E (2012) Fecundity of Paternal and Maternal Non-Parental Female Relatives of Homosexual and Heterosexual Men. PLoS ONE 7(12): e51088. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0051088

  18. Vasey, Paul & P. VanderLaan, Doug. (2009). Materteral and Avuncular Tendencies in Samoa. Human Nature. 20. 269-281. 10.1007/s12110-009-9066-4.

  19. Justa L. Heinen-Kay, Kirstin E. Morris, Nicole A. Ryan, Samantha L. Byerley, Rebecca E. Venezia, M. Nils Peterson, R. Brian Langerhans; A trade-off between natural and sexual selection underlies diversification of a sexual signal, Behavioral Ecology, Volume 26, Issue 2, 1 March 2015, Pages 533–542

  20. Genty E, Neumann C, Zuberbühler K. Complex patterns of signalling to convey different social goals of sex in bonobos, Pan paniscus. Scientific Reports. 2015

  21. Supreme Court decriminalises Section 377: All you need to know - TOI


Listen to the song -


Signing off
@scienceblocks

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I just have one serious objection with this post and I am really surprised nobody else mentioned it. Pineapple sucks, both by itself and on pizza.

Lol. I didn't think of this scenario. :)



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Great article!

I really liked the dose of feminization hypothesis.

in a lot of spaces I am in we no longer define "gayness" as only attraction to the same sex, we see that as a social construct. If it is a spectrum, so is sexuality.

"Finally, Sazi proposes that homosexuality might be a way to overcome sexual frustration. "

not a good way to put it. This word does not mean sex with somebody of the "same sex", it means attraction. Don't forget that bisexual, pansexual, etc, people exist too

" You genitals may decide what sex you are"

from the part one. That is blatantly false and I shouldn't need to tell you why

It's oversimplified but yeah, genitals generally define your sex. Sure there is that super rare condition when a woman might be born with a dick or whatever but that's why they call it a congenital disorder.

To explain it to you from another perspective. You sound like those people that when somebody says the earth is round they reply "actually the earth is an oblate spheroid". Yeah, no shit.

I won't call them disorders(I mean the gender dysphoria, not genetic conditions). The reason being that, it is quite debatable. For it to be a disorder, it should make people unable to function. However, this is generally how people are classified, but it is not necessary that they feel the way they are classified. Some studies shows that it is not the gender that people feel they belong that causes the dysfunction, but rather the stress caused by not being accepted. Hence, it is debatable. Anyway, my post was not regarding gender. It was more focused on sexuality, and pin pointing how natural and common homosexuality is in the animal kingdom, to people who says homosexuality is unnatural. If someone feels they are of opposite sex, doesn't garuntee that they are attracted towards same sex. So sexuality and gender are two different topics. My apologies if the words I used shifted the focus of the post.

"I won't call them disorders(I mean the gender dysphoria, not genetic conditions). For it to be a disorder, it should make people unable to function."

"Some studies shows that it is not the gender that people feel they belong that causes the dysfunction, but rather the stress caused by not being accepted. "

Even if that's the case, I would totally call it a disorder. We are social beings. Being accepted by other humans is something we have a natural need for, hence with out it we can't function normally. E.g. a man with a totally disfigured face from birth (but otherwise totally healthy) can theoretically function "normally". The problem is he can't because the majority of people don't want to deal with him because... he is too ugly and humans are assholes! Worst case scenario, he will be ridiculed and made fun of, best case scenario people will feel pity for him and say "oh, the poor thing, it's ugly as fuck, let's keep a distance just in case it's contagious". Unless he has a face transplant or whatever, "normal functioning" is out of the book, regardless of how good they feel with themselves.

And to say it blantly, if somebody needs to have his dick chopped off, his breasts enlarged and his body injected with all kinds of hormones to feel "normal" and function "normally", yeah, I consider that a disorder. Extremely invasive surgery + over the counter drugs sounds to me like something you would give to a patient, not a healthy human being that "functions normally".

Whether it's actually treatable it's something I don't have an opinion for, since I haven't looked up on it. I have heard though that suicide rates on people who have reassigned their gender are quite high. IF (caps for emphasis) that's true it definitely needs further investigation. Is it because they still feel not accepted by other people? Or is it because something is really wrong on their head to begin with (hence a mental disorder)? If it's true, I incline to the latter cause we humans, much like all animals, have a strong inner will to stay alive regardless of how much our life sucks.

But of course I could may well be wrong and I would gladly hear a counter argument.

Makes sense. Was just pointing out the debate. Though on second thoughts, it makes me wonder that in this line of argument - even homosexuality would make an individual dysfunctional. They won't reproduce, if society doesn't accept their behaviour, they would as well fall into the initial description. However, we don't need treatment for it, while in case of gender dysphoria we go ahead and change the biological sex. Should social acceptance be used as measure of calling something a disorder?

PS: I know it's a sensitive topic, but we need a discussion backed by logic and scientific facts on this. If people can avoid getting angry and make logical contributions to the debate, it would be great and progressive.

fuck off with your 3rd grade understanding of biology

"super rare condition" all of gender and sex is a spectrum, it's not true just for specific people but for everyone

if you were born with a dick you are a guy, if you were born with a pussy you are a gal in 99,9 % of the cases, the rest fall on the spectrum of disorders or other ambiguous cases.

What you feel you are, what you like to have sex with or what you wished you were don't matter. Simple as that.

P.S.: Thanks for the flag. Strongly shows that you rely more on your feelings rather than real arguments and logic. Some would say that this is a female trait but I find this highly sexist and totally disagree.

When we are speaking about biological sex, almost everyone can be categorized as male or female. However, a few people are happen to be born with ambiguous sexual organs, a condition known as intersex. If we add secondary sex characteristics to the story, such as angular face and broad shoulders for men or rounded face and wide hips for women, we see that people do extend along a line from extreme manly male to extreme womanly female.

This doesn't mean that we have sex continuum resembling rainbow, with bands of equal width. Rather than that, biological sex can be represented in the form of bimodal distribution:

Bimodal.png

This means that most men have average male body features, but a few extend out into the extreme manly range, while others have somewhat female characteristics. Likewise, most women have average female body features, with some extreme womanly types and others with somewhat manly characteristics.

Now, let's add gender identity and gender expression to the whole story.

Almost everyone with the biological identity of male of female identifies as male or female, in the 99.7% of the cases. You could argue that is a little tighter than it would be if society was more accepting of gender variation, but even if it went down to 99% which would be almost an order of magnitude increase, you would still have an overwhelming number of people whose gender identity matches their biological sex. The same goes for the gender expression - almost everyone who is biologically male or female, who identifies as biologically male or female, expresses themselves as male or female, and then the vast majority of them have sexual orientation that's in agreement with their biological sex, gender identity and gender expression.

Based on these purely scientific facts and stats, there is no such perspective, which is based on scientific rationale and common sense, that would consider those as independent variables.

Gender identity, gender expression and biological sex do not vary independently.

Having that said, social constructivism view must be rejected as viable hypothesis.

Since @trumpman was tagged as someone with the "3rd grade understanding of biology", me, as a PhD holder in biology, support his claims 100% and confirm that they're based solely on biological/scientific facts.

PhDs are a social construct, checkmate.

Damn! Busted :(

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Facts do not cease to exist just because they are ignored.
Aldous Huxley

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lol

Flagging me won't make you right :)

wow look at all the trolls in the comments

Completely agree. And that is what I pointed out as well. The attraction component is important. For the second part of the comment. What I mean is that is how society assign sex to people, however there is little doubt that gender is a function of sexualization of brain. And then let's not forget 46XX males and 46XY females. Even though genetically they are not make and female respectively, but until karyotyping society assign then sex based on what it appears to them. You know

the terms amab and afab are common ("assigned female/male at birth").

genetically male and female? It's way more complicated than that and that's still not quite the right terms to use.

"The attraction component is important."

it is the only component with meaning*

One could stick their dick in a glory hole without knowing who is on the other side, making that implied component of their sexuality impossible to determine.

46xx males, and xy females, are important, but you still ignore one of the most prominent aspects of it

Nice one, but maybe even too long. And you defintiely should look out for double words and spelling things like PUT A SPACE in front of(

Thanks. This comment is really helpful. Will keep this in mind for all future posts.

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