Vegan Dishonesty
A lot of vocal vegans (not all) throw around generalities and arguments and assertions that they themselves don’t even believe. If you want to have a useful discussion, or want to change other people’s minds, you have to start with a position that is rational and honest, and a lot of vegans don’t.
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Brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant.
Timely. An issue/topic I am constantly working to clarify in my own head.
I've even been both vegan and vegetarian, at various times in my life. I often noticed the internal red flags raised by my "BS detector" when the typified condescension and obfuscation would start. More accurately, I could tell that some things were not consistent and/or logical.
Lucid video. Lays it all out there in ways I had not exactly considered before.
Would love to talk about this in person sometime, man. You're going to Anarchapulco this year, right? I am trying to get down there to speak on unschooling. I guess they are reviewing...me?....right now.I'm not holding my breath. But would be fucking rad.
Would be great to rant about the hypocrisy and gray areas in person.
If you that that was brilliant, you should watch this rebuttal.
I never thought I'd say this, but Larken gets taught a lesson in philosophy here.
Larken is using semantic jiujitsu and sophistry, all while avoiding the core philosophy of veganism (freedom for sentient beings. Wait a minute, that sounds like....anarchy) and never actually stating whether or not he thinks it is morally justified to kill animals for taste pleasure.
Excellent response! I love Larken but even he can't grasp it all, can he? I feel sorry for his bad fail on this one because I'm pretty sure he'll get there sooner or later and will understand the issue the depth.
Speciesism is just another form of collectivism—all animals are individuals, it's a spook(just like the authority of the State is) to believe humans are not another form of animal.
Vegetarianism goes hand in hand with self-interest, individualism, and anarchism as it places ones health as a supreme value. The point of life is to be free to do as you please without hurting others, Spencer called this the law of equal freedom and Rand the non-aggression principle. Nevertheless, you also need to healthy in order to enjoy freedom. Some of the early American anarchists were even influenced by transcendentalistss notably Amos Bronson Alcott, who practiced a pythagorean diet or what they call veganism today.
Thank you for naming Amos Bronson Alcott, I will research the individual.
Woodchuck Pirate
aka Raymond J Raupers Jr USA
woodchuckpirate.com
Your welcome, Alcott along wth Charles Lane are very overlooked in American history and anarchist literature.
I am always grateful to be directed toward history references. Have a very nice day.
Woodchuck Pirate
aka Raymond J Raupers Jr USA
woodchuckpirate.com
Are animals rational, acting individuals? No. Although I am opposed personally to harming cetaceans, cephalopods, and primates due to their apparent capacity for more primitive reasoning and purposeful action.
Applying the moral code of intraspecies relations to interspecies relations is quite a leap in logic.
How are you suppose to know that some non-human animals not are "rational" acting individuals? You could say some humans like infants or retards aren't rational either, so should they not be subject to the same moral code? Not to mention, it seems like the majority of adults in this world aren't very "rational" as well, given the state of society and the general malady of civilization. Drawing the line between who gets to be treated the same seems to be very subjective.
Now you are shifting the burden of proof and asking me to peove a negative. Nice try.
Again, you are conflicting intraspecies traits with interspecies traits in an effort to muddy the waters. Again, nice try.
Government is not society. Despite governmental abuses (where people with evil intent act quite rationally to achieve their desired ends, BTW) humanity has progressed measurably. You aren't really making an argument. Nice try.
Making a distinction between human beings and non-human beings is not at all subjective. Nice try.
It doesn't matter whether or not animals are 'rational acting individuals'. You should not kill animals for the same reason you shouldn't kill retards.
If it is wrong to kill and eat retards (those who are lower in intelligence than animals), why is it OK to kill and eat non-humans?
The Golden Rule is very simple: That which is harmful to you, do not do to others. Unless you are emotionally retarded, it is clear to see that cows, pigs, chickens, and many other farmed creatures do NOT want to be violated or killed against their will. They cry, scream, wail, and try to escape. Why cause these creatures such immense suffering when you can choose to eat plant-based alternatives?
The burden of proof is on you to explain why it is OK to kill and eat animals for taste pleasure.
Again, you are conflating two different things as if they are one and the same. Your argument is too flawed to warrant a response.
While humans differ in their capacities for reason, and some may have developmental disabilities, the shared species traits remain. Other species have not been shown to share the same traits. You haven't made any arguments to support your position other than appeals to emotion and a pile of outright fallacies.
If you don't want honest, rational discussion, say so. In which case:
nice try
Though answer this is you can:
How do you know this?
There is nothing to answer. That was not presented in the form of an argument, but as an opinion based on uncertainty.
Are they human? No. Biology is a thing.
Do they show evidence of rational choice and resultant purposeful action? I am not certain, but what I have seen indicates that they may, so I err on the side of non-harm while acknowledging that others may disagree.
Can you respond to any of the points I actually made?
The State is separate from society I agree, but the government is ultimately made up of people who come from society. These people and their control schemes have become more powerful than ever.
And as fas as humanity progressing, this depends how you want to evaluate it. Perhaps in a material sense many people have more wealth, products, access to technology, and the general run-of-the-mill features of consumerist society, yet does this really mean human progression? Looking around it seems many people are fearful, stressed, and unhappy about their life circumstances regardless of their economic position. Remember also that we are just coming out of the century of democide where the State killed over 250 million of it's own citizens not including war with others.
Of course you can make a distinction between humans and other animals. Just like you could between a human with Asian or European descent. What I said was drawing the line between what type of species gets treated as a moral equivalent is subjective, and it's often interpreted through cultural norms. Some people get upset when dogs are eaten as food but think it's ok for cows to be eaten. What if an alien population came to earth, how would humans determine if they are a worthy species for the law of equal freedom or non-violence to be applicable to?
Who is in the position to determine if a certain species is capable or not capable of "rational" choice or "purposeful action". Shouldn't your uncertainty make you err on the side of non-harm to all sentient animals? Collectivists have used the same argument to justify domination and superiority over certain groups of people because they are not worthy enough.
The free market is nice because it allows things to go unplanned by central authorities; it errs on the side of a vernacular or spontaneous order when it comes to enterprise and other economic activity, letting all individuals be worthy enough to associate freely because of the uncertain and subjective nature of value.
Excellent progression of questioning. Pity the self-diminished intellectual capacity of the herd (humans) that have been emptied of empathy, reduced to chickenshit conformity within dystopic society(s). It's no wonder Tesla died penniless and the sheep are content to shear their lives away calling slavery freedom and sophistry philosophy.
What is does not compare to what should be. Focused misanthropy remains rational.
Thank you for your discussions here. Your words have come to confirm the realizations arising within me to know that as long as humans avoid spiritual bonds with non-humans, devolution will continue and secure mankind's extinction.
Woodchuck Pirate
aka Raymond J Raupers Jr USA
woodchuckpirate.com
Conflating species differences with racism is intellectually dishonest. The fact that authoritarians use bad arguments to justify their totalitarianism does not justify using even worse arguments to support your position.
Your implied assumption that humans are rational, acting individuals is being diminished daily by the popular chosen pathological narcissism stereotype that characterizes the species.
Form is not life, form is simply the art of living. I am not human, I am no-"thing". I simply am. The human life-form is highly overrated. I am comforted by the promise of an inevitable rescue by death. I hope the option to choose consciousness devoid of matter is available when this human body expires. It would surely be a sentence of hell to be returned within a human life-form.
Woodchuck Pirate
aka Raymond J Raupers Jr USA
woodchuckpirate.com
Humans apply reason to choose actions they believe will achieve their desired ends, whether you approve of those ends or not. The quality of the information on which they base their reason does not negate the fact that reason is used to interpret that information. The fact that self-interest drives that reasoning neither disproves rationality nor proves that it is "pathological narcissism." Applying a stereotype is lazy reasoning on your part, and the very fact that politicians appeal to concern for others in their real pathological narcissism proves that people in general believe that helping others serves their own interests. The fact that people disagree on the means for this is irrelevant.
"Form is not life, form is simply the art of living. I am not human, I am no-"thing". I simply am."
You think, therefore you exist? And therefore all life forms are equivalent? You're skipping a step in your argument there, or else I am misunderstanding your argument. You seem to be trying to make a philosophical point, but the manner of your communication lacks clarity.
If you reread my posts you may realize I expressed that all life-forms are interconnected and the context I expressed in detail was "threat of near-term planetary omnicide" manifest from pathological narcissism of humans not non-humans. I also provided a link to a youtube video uploaded by geoengineeringwatch.org. The fact that non-humans are not responsible for the cataclysms created by climate engineering is as relevant as the guilt of humans including those exhibiting silent complicity.
Perhaps your manner of rationalization avoids clarity? That's ok, I'm not an altruist and do not seek the conversion of others and in kind am not vulnerable to conversion by others. I'm committed to the pursuit of infinite truth. I'm inclined to respect your attempt to escape clarity as you have not attempted to display posture of benchmarking your behavior to the non-aggression principle. But then you only escape confronting your ego which is fruitless as there is never dialogue between true self and ego. True self arises as ego dies.
Yes I do not approve of pathological narcissistic human actions manifesting threat of near term planetary omnicide through ongoing climate engineering destroying the insects, habitat and all life on Earth. You appear to be trying to posture cold indifference but the manner of your communication inhibits dialogue (flow of meaning). What is more lazy than ego-misidentification?
Take heart though, maybe John Lennon was right and instant Karma's really gonna get you. If not you are still right where you have chosen to stay, irrational.
Woodchuck Pirate
aka Raymond J Raupers Jr USA
woodchuckpirate.com
Maybe the actual definition of veganism will get you started educating yourself on the matter. It was a long video and a complete waste of yours and everyone else time. Not to mention what confusion you have created on the matter! Doing big disservice to everyone there.
I love you to death but the hypocrisy of your arguments re veganism is above and beyond. There is 100% parallel between your work on anarchy vs government re shock, comparison, belief, etc, and veganism vs modern animal agriculture. You are not being honest with yourself of this one or fully do not grasp veganism to begin with which I'm afraid is actually the case. Sorry, you lost me on this one. You should stick with what you do best instead. Big fail.
Larken,
I like your presentation as it appears a lamentation on context per rhetoric exchanged. However the construct of your assumptive close in labeling the opposing rhetoric "dishonest" is comprised of an underlying assumption that your viewers may perceive you as occupying the higher ground. Is it possible that you actually share common ground in the dishonesty?
As a self professed anarchist lamenting upon the valid philosophical merit, applicability, and obligation upon yourself to benchmark your conscious actions/reactions to the non aggression principle, you hold yourself exposed to equal judgment as the vegans you labeled "dishonest". Why then does your post contain zero context of the threat of near-term planetary omnicide caused by 70+ years of geoengineering?
No honest conversation can be held regarding the relationship of humans and nonhumans as long as humans choose to turn two blind eyes to the collapse of the biosphere occurring right now. When there are no insects, no habitat, there will be no humans. Where is your exercise of obligation under the non-aggression principle to respond to this climate engineering assault against all life on Earth? Your post reveals silent complicity.
I lost my appetite for meat this past July when the climate engineering operations across upstate New York turned the spigot on for a month. I thought I might have contracted something fatal as the pain radiated from areas in my back through my abdomen, groin and chest. I dropped the only ten pounds of fat I had on my body and had to punch a new hole in my belt lest my pants literally fell down. No matter what type of food I ate my bowels couldn't hold onto it. The ringing in my ears was seamlessly intensified for the entire duration of the month. I stared out the window at the tri-axle of logs I needed to cut and split by hand for the coming winter, unable to do the work in the rain even if I could pull myself through the pain and fatigue. I've got herniated discs and live in daily chronic pain and the hard physical labor is the only strategy I have to endure pain and avoid atrophy. Despite my high pain tolerance threshold I was incapacitated and could only wait patiently as the roads washed out from flash floods and I meditated on what/who I knew was the source of this climate engineered event. It was during this meditation on my farm watching the deer and other animals innocently enduring the same stratospheric aerosol injections of aluminum raining down the air column that I grew ever more conscious of how much humans have failed their obligations.
It is now October 4th and I still don't/can't eat meat. I have not, do not and will not call myself a vegetarian. I've worked through all the same parameters of the arguments with the vegan positions that you expressed in this post and being bonded with the land I am no stranger of nature. I shot my first deer in 1971 and have slaughtered free range chickens I raised from chicks. I still maintain a disrespect for the entitlement position of humans that may eat a thousand pounds of meat in their lives without ever having slit the throat of a living animal. But then I'm committed to the pursuit of infinite truth and I will not tolerate myself to have a personal disconnection with my food supply. Such is the nature of woodchucks and rednecks from the folks I know 'round here.
So now I'm down to what I perceive fact you are occupying common ground of dishonesty with most self professed environmentalists and vegans associated with 501c3 organizations, willingly turning two blind eyes toward climate engineering.
Why lament from a soapbox wielding articulate understanding of the non-aggression principle while you betray the obligation of living it? When there are no insects, no habitat, there will be no humans. Perhaps you have buried your conscience somewhere along the way while chasing the story about who you are.
Here's something posted via my obligation to the non-aggression principle. There is no future for men who don't man up. Look up, wake up, or don't.
Woodchuck Pirate
aka Raymond J Raupers Jr USA
woodchuckpirate.com
Nice post and I agree too many vegans flaw their own argument. I would describer myself as a partial vegan I try and avoid dairy most of the time but admit sometimes I will eat it. And the main reason is all the chemical they put in everything these days. Yes I do eat organic and yes if reared my own animal I would consider using them for food.
In terms of health I feel better for not eating meat and considerably less diary; so yes its better for me. I am fitter have more energy, but get for some this diet does not work. It's all down to personal choice and situation. 💯🐒
Thank you for commenting on the dietary needs.
I only drink distilled water as all other sources are polluted with fluoride. I eat eggs from my free range chickens. I eat organic whole milk yogurt from grass fed cows, and whole milk from cows that are not treated with hormones. I eat only organic non-gmo bread and even then I don't like the fact that fluoride polluted water is used in processing. I therefore try to spend the time to bake my own bread. I never eat from restaurants. Also pineapple and yogurt are high in iodine which is important to get because if a body is lacking in iodine the aluminum and other heavy metal aerosols will be taken into the body in place of iodine.
The gov't food industry has a genocide agenda. The obligation of every individual to open their own eyes is a cornerstone of self-reliance. Nobody is entitled to be converted and anyone who thought they were gonna just sign up for an entitlement check and run out the clock is sadly mistaken.
Woodchuck Pirate
aka Raymond J Rsaupers Jr USA
woodchuckpirate.com
I totally agree I too filter my water as much as I can. Thankfully where I am they don't put Fluoride in the water directly which is a bonus. And yes making your own bread is the key, with organic ingredients.
Unfortunately I do occasionally eat in restaurants and I do question this each time it happens. It is so hard to break the societal norms of todays society. Slowly but surly I am and hope your a re too. Keep up the great work 💯🐒
I would still drink only distilled water because here all water sources likely have trace elements of pharmaceuticals specifically endocrine disruptors and no filter exists able to remove them. Fish in the Chesapeake Bay have been observed growing both male and female genitalia per the endocrine disruptors and undoubtedly the human population is affected. I live near the Susquehanna River which makes its way to the Chesapeake Bay. I also own multiple properties and my farm has a private well, but the amount of heavy metals raining down the air column from climate engineering is likely polluting all water sources. The devestation of trees especially my apple trees is a disturbing consequence. Oct 1, 2018 I observed new apple blossoms on one of my trees. In the 12 years I've owned this farm I've never seen apple blossoms in October but there are no natural hydrological processes anymore just engineered events and they are mostly ice nucleated cooldowns and deluge flooding over long periods of steady rain. Winter has been characterized by arctic freezes to include the spring interval where the SRM chemicals sprayed damage the leaves and fruit if they eventually arrive at all. Perhaps the tree with October blossoms has been triggered erroneously by the weather whiplash events that never stop.
I also make sure to eat a steady diet of resistant starch such as partially green organic bananas. Resistant starch is also produced by cooking potatoes or rice and then chilling them for at least 12 hours in refrigerator before consumption. Resistant starch is a soluble fiber that does not get digested in the stomach but instead passes through to the large intestine where it feeds the gut biome. There is a great deal of science involved in food and health which the gov't GMO farms and Rockefeller medicine psychopaths seek to eradicate.
I always look for Non-GMO organic Non-enriched products. I do not eat processed foods except for the Arnold brand non gmo organic bread that also does not have any enrichment. I also avoid anything with carrageenan as it causes small intestine inflammation and can lead to cancer in some cases.
Lastly I am shifting away from growing food outdoors per the climate engineering nano-tech spraying which gets absorbed into the plants and vegetables. I need to bring in some shipping containers and outfit them for hydro-ponics, hopefully next summer if I stay in NY. I have ranch land in the high country Arizona that calls me.
Thanks for the conversation, have a nice day.
Woodchuck Pirate
aka Raymond J Raupers Jr USA
woodchuckpirate.com
Great advise I have a grand plan I have spoken about in a previous post. Part of this involves growing completely organic possible with a wallapni in order to protect from the rain. Scary it's come to that hey. But hopefully we are in time to revert it back for our children's children 💯🐒
Pienso que los veganos están obsesionados con la palabra "ética". Aquella a la que recurren cuando se les pregunta qué les ha llevado a cambiar.
Check out Larken Rose they said...
Well, you just got yourself a new subscriber!
I made the experience, after working with ayahuasca and energy healing, that plenty of people in those circles are hypocrites and don't want you to dissolve your limiting beliefs like they say but rather they want you to adopt their own limiting beliefs.
Keep being honest and authentic, Larken!
I'm vegan but I do not go on about it and never comment on others eating dead animals.
Meat coming from the average place worldwide is full of toxins, the factory farm is just insane, the animals are kept alive by consuming endless antibiotics and other nasty toxins.
We are what we eat, eat shit, feel shit. This is why we have so many sick people, they are eating so-called meat but what's in the meat you are eating? Toxins.
The animals are born into a horror show and until they are killed live in total torture. Of course, this affects the meat quality.
How do you think McDonald's can sell chicken and burgers so cheap? They raise a chicken in half the natural time by force feeding them until their stomachs are bursting. You think this is going to be healthy for your body?.
The ONLY meat people should eat for their own health is organic meat. This way the animals have a natural life and are healthy when killed and eaten by humans. I'm told the difference in taste is unreal.
Meat may not be murder but it is torture on the average factory farm and most farms are now factory farms.
MEET YOUR MEAT and SEE WHAT YOU EAT