Can we talk about bid bots for a second?

in #bidbot6 years ago

I gotta tell you. I got a few upset DMs in Discord and on the post I created on @minnowsupport about having created a public bid bot for the Minnow Support Project. But I want you to know. We're gonna be ok! Steem is ok. MSP is ok. The blockchain isn't dying. Chicken little isn't even awake. Bid bots aren't the end of the world. They're just a part of HF19.

Wtf is a HF19?

Ok, well, because we're growing and seem to have some turn over on who is active many of you may not have any idea what that means. Like the dish washer in your house you don't know how it works, but it works, so you don't care. Same with Steem, but here's the deal. Software iterations on Steem are tracked by a thing called hardforks. You're used to Windows 7 and 8. And know they are different versions. Here we talk about hardfork 18, 19, and the next one will be 20, which is called "velocity."

In this last HF we changed the way that rewards work. See this platform has a distribution that's pretty scewed. 93% of the steem is in the hands of 1% of the accounts and that's before we take into account @steemit. So, in the old method of voting the effect was exponential because the math was a combination of the number of people voting on something and SP^2 to determine rewards. that SP^2 factor made it so that the problem was exponentially greater. Minnow votes were practically dust. I remember it being a huge day when I got up to a 2 cent vote! So, they changed it from SP^2 to the math just using straight SP. That's the change from exponential to linear rewards.

Thing called reward shares, which is proportional to SP, used to be R^2 now it's just R.

So, now what happens is that it doesn't matter who else votes on your post. You don't get a squared curation effect. You get a linear one. Minnows got a boost to the post rewards they could deliver (a tiny fraction squared is still tiny), whales got a hair cut, and posts no longer needed tons of people voting on them to get a strong reward.

the good

@minnowsupport couldn't help over 1000 minnows a day get started on the platform without the change. The fact that the bot awards any post rewards at all to a minnow is specifically because of linear rewards.

@utopian-io wouldn't exist either. Because the votes wouldn't be worth $250 unless everyone else piled on too. Possible they could get more... but in it's current iteration it can't work.

the bad

Here are some of the concerns:

only shitposters use them
they kill the value of steem
bid bots rape the pool

So, let's talk about the first one. Shitposters only club... I think there is a stigma that if you use a bidbot you're a scammer, but I think this needs to change. I don't know how to get rid of bidbots without hurting minnow support or utopian-io. So, I'm gonna pause for a second and say what if there wasn't a stigma against using them on good posts? If we collectively agree it's ok to use on good posts and we start rewarding high quality content with upvotes is that ok? you run the risk of getting your value pummeled by whales if your reward/views ratio gets too high.

But just think about this. If it's ok to use them on good posts what could you do then? I'm going to put a few bidbots on this post. It's going to be ok. If you do it too it's going to be ok. Promote good content with bots, because if you don't someone else will use them to promote shit content.

bidbots kill the value of steem

Steem is sitting around 90-$1. When I started on this platform steem was usually at 20 cents. We've had a 5x improvement in a year. When I hear people say steem is dead, or fuck this platform or bots have killed it I think they're nuts. Our non-fiat SBD which stands for Steem backed Dollar, which literally means you can turn it into Steem is now getting pumped in part it seems because it's being used by traders as a safe store of value. Eventually people will start using this to trade off of because it takes 3 seconds to move money instead of minutes and there isn't a cost to move it.

So, look, price is way up. Maybe not in the 20 days you have been here, but in the year and a half I have been I'm pretty happy with a 5x return on my starting funds. It'll get better too when velocity and SMTs come out. STeem is gonna tokenize the internet. And you're an early adopter. I just don't agree that bidbots have killed the price of steem.

If anything they incentive holding it. Cause now instead of a shitty return you can make a bid bot and make money running a voting script. That's not a bad way to grow your funds (which is the main reason I'm running a public bot).

Bots rape the pool

This is the short hand, but I think the honest answer is "shitposters who receive bot upvotes are raping the pool." I don't think it's the end of the world that a good post gets an addtional 10-20 bucks if it's good content, if it brings people here, if it help folks understand the platform, or a myriad of other good reasons.

yes, some asshole posts a link and upvotes that spam it's bad, but if they do it enough they'll start getting flagged. So, I'm not sure that's the end of the world either. Flag shitposts with bot votes. Be the current solution to this. Or maybe just ask them to stop shit posting politely and explain the risk to them and the cost to the platform.

My main points

Steem isn't dying.
It's ok to use bid bots on good posts.
it's ok to flag or discourage shit posting.

You should try a bidbot if you haven't already. Put it on your post, make a smart bid by checking http://www.steembottracker.com before you bid, and make a little extra money on your hard work. If you stop judging yourself and others for using this service and allow yourself to benefit and have fun with it (put it on other people) then you're gonna have a good day.

Become and investor in one

If you'd like to become an investor in a bid bot and reap the same benefit as the whales taht use them try this public bidbot: https://steemit.com/bidbot/@minnowsupport/a-bidbot-for-the-people-introducing-msp-bidbot. Low amounts of steem get rewarded.

mspsteem.com

This post was authored on mspsteem.com. It's a clone of steemit.com, but it has a 5% beneficiary to @minnowsupport and is managed by @netuoso.

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@aggroed - we agree with your points but you haven't mentioned us - smartsteem - the hottest and fairest voting bot on steem.

https://steemit.com/steem/@smartsteem/smartsteem

(self voted for publicity)

:(

That self upvote on muh wall for a promotion. You didn't even upvote muh post to sell yours...

We have to be careful about the voting power used, but you're right. Fixed that!

Good post. You make some great points. I guess you can always flag bot shit posts and it will eventually work itself out. You are right though, it is still the early phases. Still have some growing pains, but I think it will trend in the right direction.

Hi @aggroed,
Very nice post and I agree with you on all.
especially this part

"shitposters who receive bot upvotes are raping the pool."

I have been using http://www.steembottracker.com for a while to try and make a smart bid. Considering that I barely have 2-5 SBD collected with hard work from several of my posts, I want to make the most out of it and give more publicity to my posts.

The problem is that

  1. Most people are greedy and not smart. So instead of checking the reward pool and deciding to let people betting in that time slot get something out of it, they just bid with higher amounts. They want to hog all the bidbot rewards to themselves and they end up losing and letting others lose.
    As if waiting for the next bidding cycle is going to kill them or something

  2. Most people with shit posts have lots of SBD (since they know how to exploit the system without feeling bad), so they end up ruining the bid bot for everyone.

My 2 cents: I humbly suggest that the owners of the bid-bot track those who uses the bot and discern whether they are shitposters or goodposters. Then they can prohibit the voting on the shit posts and just return the money, or not so these shit posters will learn a lesson.

I think the bidbots have lots of data that can be used for that already.

As for flagging, it is hard to stalk and find those shitposters all day long, so they will learn to avoid flaggers somehow. Hence, I don't see that as a good solution, however, it doesn't hurt to be vigilant of course.

Hope the bid-bot developers will look into this and implement it (if they are caring about steemit and not only about making money, no matter how)

Best,
Dr. TLK :)

In my short amount of experience here on steemit, 'shit-posters' always have a very short life span.

"Or maybe just ask them to stop shit posting politely and explain the risk to them and the cost to the platform." I like this approach.

I try to promote some sanity.

I upvoted your comment / support @gringalicious and agree with what you say,
you are one of the better posters in here. ❤️

You're too sweet. Thanks so much for the kind words!

Hey @gringalicious thats a great comments i am really proud of you.

As other types of users come in to the platform like photographers...do you consider 1-5 good photos to be a shit post? Short content to medium content posts will be part of the steemit community in the future and this will help steemit grown to mainstream.

What do you guys think? @aggroed @gringalicious.

thank you for explaining this. i think there is a lot of concern about bots because many people disagree. I've had well established people on steemit tell me they are powering down because of bots and scamming, and i'm not sure who to believe anymore.

some could be truth, but there could also be those wanting to protect their investment, or reactions out of fear. not everyone agrees on the right way, but perhaps the scary part is we don't know the facts percentage wise.

if seventy percent believe bots are bad, that is an uphill battle. if only 20%, this is workable. fear of the unknown is a challenge. wondering if no matter what i do, a few whales are consistently dumping steem to make a quick profit and thus devaluing it; this concerns me.

how do we know steem isnt dying? while numbers in PAL are up, each day i see PAL as quieter as far as chat and continuing users investing in steem. one of the downsides of a western education is it has trained me to look for facts. I could and do trust you, but what do we really know about activity in the last three months? perhaps an article for paulag would do better for reassuring.

the most important part for me is - why aren't people voting more? why aren't we stressing not only curation but better ways to accomplish it? and why are people stuck on curating the same thing for a profit instead of curating the people who really need help because their posts arent up to speed? not shit posters, but people who just dont have the skills or resources to post as well as the college grad who earns $50 for a post they spent two hours on?

right now i'm a curator and i have no flipping idea if i am doing it to the best of my ability. i've asked people and gotten some hints, but the reality is I often am put in the position of curating the same people over and over because it seems that theres just not enough new posts coming out. i don't know if this is true, it's just my feeling on it. we need a way to measure the market, imho, to see how many creators there are, how many curators, how many developers. because if we arent maintaining a good balance, we are perpetuating a myth of steemit as a viable platform.

I'm taking this from @penguin pablo. We're at a rough average and sticking to it. We had a slow down when steemit broke. Now we seem to be back to growing, but I think the holidays are slowing this down some. real trick will be what happens next week.

More important will be what happens when steem starts to tokenize the entire internet.

thanks for this! good to know someone is out there keepin track :)

i am following him now, he has some really good information about the daily output of the platform, for anyone else interested.

https://steemit.com/steemit/@penguinpablo/daily-steem-stats-report-saturday-november-25-2017

Wonderful Post! My opinion is that going into the future we must never really complain about bots. Bots are here to stay, even movies from before the creators of the block-chain were born, fortold that in the future we shall be coexisting with robots.

Finally, some sense to the subject.

This and @themarkymark's (buildawhale owner) post this morning are the posts to read on the subject.

I think there is a stigma that if you use a bidbot you're a scammer

To the point where I'm now afraid to use them and feel I've already gained 'enemies'

RS - 3rd one of yours in a week as it happens!

do what works for you..there will always be Haters.
Wait to use them and see how well you do without them and on some posts don't use them, see if those haters show up to support you.

This is all a test, new territory, enjoy being here. 👍

Yes I've been trying different approaches, thanks :)

Posting for utopian-io means their bot will come visit, and it prefers it if other bots aren't present!

lol.. bot envy, understandable though

all about the bots :D

I've sent 100's of bots to other users posts over the past 6 months, especially @aggroed's @lovejuice.

I agree completely with you. I saw so many minnows come and go over the last year and a half because they put in the effort and got little to no recognition or reward. With communities like @minnowsupport and @qurator minnows can finally get a little recognition for their work. Bid-bots just help incentivize minnows to put in the effort.

As for bid-bots raping the reward pool, sure it happens some, but there are so many people trying to game the system now in so many ways that the amount of reward raping going on by most bid-bots is pretty small compared to the benefits they offer to the quality posters.

Great post @aggroed. Drives me nuts seeing the shit posts all over the place. I've used a bid bot a couple of times on posts that I put a lot of heart into. I don't use them all the time but occasionally yes. I have also started to flag said shit posts. Thanks for trying help to clear the air and some of the stigma around proper use of bidbots.

Very good points and yes I use to fight myself vs bots and you know what totally not worth it. If you can't beat them join them I say lol

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