RE: QOTW: Why do you think there is so much hate and anger toward Vegans, and why are those who eat meat and dairy so threatened by the notion of giving it up?
ok here is my take on this whole issue.
When we do something that causes no harm to others such as smoking in our private spaces, eating ramen and pizza all day etc, then i think people should be free to do whatever they wish.
If on the other hand people actions harm others then it is different.. I dont think its OK to say that just because it is annoying for you that people shouldnt stand up for those who cannot defend themselves. When our choices do harm to others then I think we have a moral obligation to stand up and say something, do something about it.. Eating meat, especially cheap mass produced meat causes incredible harm to the animals involved and as such I think people are totally justified to make their point and challenge you.. Sorry if you find that annoying but i can assure you its far less annoying then what most animals have to live by..
As for nutrition.. i dont see any truth in what you are saying. Sure there are SOME people who are in a minority who need to eat meat due to food sensitivity or whatever.. but by in large most people can eat a pure vegan diet and be just as healthy if not more healthy than meat eating folk... There is no debate to be had on this because of the number of people who do eat a vegan diet and are VERY healthy and strong.. Sure it takes some effort to learn how to eat properly, and that education is happening, step by step.. so i just dont buy it!
with all that said, i am surprised to hear of the number of people who say that vegans are SO aggressive, and as you say, want to see you die.. That is not something that i have seen, and I would imagine is a very small percentage of people.. but perhaps their voices are heard over and above those who keep quiet and get on with their lives.. I dont think an aggressive stance is OK, and that doesn't help the cause.. i can see that.. people who are against eating meat should make their case in a productive and respectful way..
and finally, just because something is considered normal, is no justification for it.. as im SURE you can appreciate.. most of what is considered normal these days is abhorrent, totally unacceptable..
It is not that they tell me to die, it is that their rhetoric leaves only that option. And, even after they have exhausted their knowledge, and know that i cannot survive on any vegetarian diet, they still insist on me becoming vegetarian/vegan.
Your logic about animal deaths is inescapable.
However, i do not agree with any of your assumptions.
All life is precious. Even that Brussel's Sprout you are eating there.
I do not draw the line at animals. Yes, you believe there is a difference between animal and vegetable. And thus, for you, you are making the correct choice to reduce suffering.
To me, i understand the circle of life. I understand the level of which this world is built on the corpses of all that have come before. I thank them for giving their lives so that this world can live.
Yes, factory farm techniques of raising animals is cruel.
But, the monoculture factory farm techniques of raising vegetables is just as cruel, and actually kills more beings.
This is important to all vegetarians / vegans
The monoculture BigAg is about to collapse. Due to soil destruction, chemtrails and the coming ice age, giant farms are about to stop producing.
This is the future.
So, if you want to continue eating vegetables, you are going to need to be growing themselves in your own greenhouse.
What is fascinating to me is that you have never once asked how to become a Breatharian or to create manna.
I know a few beatharians. Its an option for a few who can breathe prana but its not for everyone.. i could probably go down that route but am not drawn to it right now..
I admire ur respect for all life, but as i say plants dont suffer, they are part of the one consciousness that is beyond ego and suffering.. so for me there is a huge difference..
If were being idealistic them we should all be fruitarians as fruit is about the only thing that nature intended us to eat.. but I think harvesting vegetables is really fine also and most of them were also intended to be eaten.. anything derived from a flower is ok to eat in my books.
Yes monoculture is not good, that is a different debate but really doesnt mean animal cruelty is any less imprtant to look at..
If u need to eat meat then u can ignore the few fanstics that u have met. My posts are not aimed at the very few with special needs but at the majority of people who dont have food sensitivities.. mind u probably half the people who do have allergies would do well to improve their diet to whole food and reduced meat intake..
Anyways, u say it well that growing some food of your own is the best way forward and its pretty easy to grow a tonne of veggies in yhe tiniest of spaces. Ive grown and harvested loads of veggies in jusy 30 days usings simple systems with good soil,, so i totally agree with that!
I grew up on an island in Alaska. I am intimately connected to nature, practically feral. On a primal level I live with nature, despite that I am a man. I am Man, the species we are, familiar with the spectrum of human activities and how we fit in the world.
You have never, ever, fed yourself, or you could not make the farcical assumptions you do regarding what we are, need, and do.
Men have arisen in this world, and not by eating fruit. The life cycle of all things is intimately linked, and since the origin of mankind, we have used pointy sticks, fire, and dogs to good effect. We did not spawn ourselves, but were born of nature itself, as were wolves, caribou, and fruits.
No living thing is an island apart from all living things, and were there not wolves, there would not be caribou. Men fit in the world as omnivores, and if you care about whether or not you cause suffering you should be humane. Be merciful, and do not let caribou starve to death in the snow.
Have the mercy shown by wolves, or stand revealed as the tormentor of all life which is utterly dependent on we Men undertaking the role we have evolved to fill. Jains strain at gnats, yet murder them the same. Even Breatharianism is murderous, because when you starve to death without actual food, your microbiome will perish without you to feed it.
Life is paid by death. From the least microbe to the most noble philosopher, all die of something. Life naturally arranges for that to perpetuate it, and to scorn such for vain hubris is rank foolishness.
I will die as I have lived, and pray I feed worms, rather than sit pickled in a cask, or pollute the skies with my ashes.
Aquaculture is indeed vastly preferable to agribusiness for profit, and yet Veganism remains silent on it. Just as Muslims deride Jews, and both Christians, even more so than Hindus or Shintos, Vegists scorn natural people for refusing to be proselytized. I find but little reason for it but conceit.
You bring in Nature, life and death, the wilderness, the 'mercy of the wolf' and its fundamental relationship with the Caribou: brought to mind a book set in Alaska: 'Never Cry Wolf' by Farley Mowat (which you may know) where the "Wolf keeps Caribou" healthy as the Indians say; and the author overturns all the misconceptions and slanderous lies about the Wolf, who shows himself to be of nobler sophistication than Man.
...this is where we kinda part company, but I just mention it to say that I don't think evolution is a done and dusted deal, it is happening still, and ever changing. A role is a role, an 'act': it is largely composed of perceptions and, perhaps, some belief systems, IMO.
Powerful use of language and an inspiring comment, thank you.
I agree. Wolves aren't particularly noble, but do their job. People can be incredibly noble, but far too many don't live so much as live on. Beyond their time, beyond their means, or on the backs of others.
Evolution is about to leap far beyond what we can imagine, I think. Have a look at
this, and you'll see what I mean. As for what might be done to stop this, visit www.the-odin.com and buy your own CRISPR kit. This genie ain't going back in the bottle.
It is also what I mean about our role. I think of humanity more as sorts of fertilized ova that are about to spread life throughout the universe, and in plethora, abundance, and such ways as we cannot imagine.
I didn't use roles as in institutions, but as niches in ecosystems, which have nothing to do with perceptions or beliefs - except as they impact how we effect our niche. Our affectations as people dramatically affect our effects, lol.
Thanks for your kind words =)
My comment about fruitarians was a sarcastic response to bring told we should be breatharians or that we should not even eat vegetables! .. if u read it again in context u may get that..
I feed myself well and have grown a lot of food btw!
I am glad you are not bedeviled by the Breatharian fantasy.
Buying starts or seeds from a nursery, bags of dirt, and lumber to make beds isn't feeding yourself. It's purchasing the corpses of living creatures from men that have killed them to make those products for you. Soil is nothing more than dung and corpses.
Living in the forest in Alaska, I learned some hard truths about who and what we are, and hunters is part of the answer. The growing season is short there. Veganism in the wild is a death sentence. In cities vegans are blissfully unaware of how their food costs the ecosystems.
When I hunt, I look what I eat in the eye before I kill it. I do so because I love it, and respect it, and because it is merciful to not only that creature, but all the creatures I spare by my hunting. Creatures of every kind and stripe, not only animals.
The forest is a war. Every plant is battling constantly for space and the resources it needs. They kill and eat their competitors too, though it can take centuries. Fungi are like buzzards for plants. It's an amazing system, life, and every living thing kills to eat before dying to feed others.
Pretending to be merciful while looking the other way and hiring out your killing to the agro-industrial complex is not manly. It's not humane. It's cowardice and conceit. Acknowledging that the celery you have for lunch has displaced the vast herds of bison is rational. It's not morally superior to eat the celery than to eat the bison.
When you forage in the wild for food you join in the war of life, and do so directly rather than hiring Monsanto to do it for you. I'm not saying humanity should all become grunting savages, but we should make no pretense that when we eat we do not kill beautiful living breathing animals, because we do kill them when we eat celery grown on the prairies where bison used to roam.
We just hire thugs with hammers to whack our food for us when we buy celery, or the fixings to grow our own from industry.
Wow.’ U sound an little bit fanatical, and slightly misinformed,, but each to our own!
I live in the remote jungles of south india mountains.. my vegetables grow without any harm to the local bison whome I meet eye to eye as they migrate.
Two of my friends are bretharians.. they are doing just fine! Most of my friends are vegetarian and likewise are healthy beings!
Anyways, enjoy your world and i will mine!