My thoughts on flags for disagreement on rewardssteemCreated with Sketch.

in #flags6 years ago (edited)

Hey everyone!

Flags have started becoming more used as of late, and not just on plagiarism/abuse/etc. I've been observing some of them lately and how others have handled them, in some cases it has left me really disappointed, so I wanted to chime in my thoughts and opinions around them.

There are some bigger users who are using their flags to combat abuse of delegations primarely through self-voting low quality content just to be able to pay for said delegation. I fully agree with those and I will support said users sacrificing their potential curation rewards to better distribute the reward pool to everyone else not involved in the abuse.

Then there are some bigger users who also have a history of fighting all sorts of abuse but they also flag content where they don't agree with the rewards it has received. This is the more controversial one lately even though "disagreement on rewards" is the first reason when placing a flag.

This is what I've noticed happening so far and being the popular route authors receiving flags take.

Big user A flags author B because he believes the rewards on her posts aren't warranted. Often these users write a comment explaining the reason to the flag, some times they may not do so. This might be the first flag author B has ever received, instead of taking a minute to process it, they lash out and go on a venting spree about this so called "unfair" flag. Often attacking user A and disregarding any logic or past history of that user and his flag activity. Either being mad about the amount of $ they lost through the rewards, or having received the flag in the first place which they take offensively. This usually heats up and makes user A want to flag said author even more which becomes more emotional and defeats the purpose of the first flag completely. It spins out of control.

In a perfect world, this would happen instead.

User A flags author B and explains that he doesn't see how the content of the post justifies the rewards it gets. Author B should accept this, after all this user is sacrificing curation rewards (increasing his stake in the currency) for redistributing the reward pool onto the rest of the platform with stake that the user himself has purchased and has the right to do so. Author B should not feel as if he was targeted specifically or take it personally and especially not lash out because of it or feel as if the user is "stealing" rewards from him. After all post payouts are called potential until they are paid out, we even have a timer in place specifically to allow for flags to be cast on posts before they are paid out if some users feel the rewards are too high. Author B should accept the flag and see if he can improve on what he is doing as to not get flagged again in the future, even if chances of the flags reoccurring are low they could either give it a thought or just ignore it and move on doing what they already have been doing in the past. Not bicker and whine about a flag and threaten to leave the platform or call "censorship" or similar stuff I've been hearing in the past.

Here is why I believe these actions go down the way they do.

Authors, specifically those being on autovotes from others, get attached to the rewards and take them for granted. The $ amount next to the upvotes makes it seem even more like they are losing out after receiving a few flags and they take it personally and overreact to them. The autovotes give them the feeling of "having made it" on the platform and receiving flags threatens to remove their active income in the future. They often mention the $ amount they lose through flags or how "little" the amount they earn on posts is anyway, not realizing that half of it is in stake of the currency and the future potential of it. It's even more disappointing seeing authors that have been around for a long time mention this, surely they have been posting when the price of Steem was under 10 cents meaning that their 20$ post rewards back then are worth at least 100$ today, yet always somehow fail to mention that gain and only discuss the current loss.

Authors have gotten so used to almost no one flagging for disagreement of rewards that they get startled by them and see them as an attack. An often reoccurring statement is "go and flag those actually abusing the reward pool through plagiarism and self-votes" even though that is being handled daily and Steemcleaners who has received a massive delegation to help with that is doing their job.

I'm hoping that this will be the start of making flags seem more normal. You have to remember this is a free market, if someone goes and flags something its in his best interest to do so for the greater good of the platform, similar to how some curators try and distribute the stake as wide as possible, they indirectly do that through flags. One of Steems strengths is to have a healthy distribution compared to other cryptocurrencies out there. I also hope the way flags are perceived by authors changes over time, instead of whining over them the way they might do today, they should just accept them and move on. Not take it personally, not take it as a reason to write a ton of posts trying to shame said flagger, not take it as a reason to feel attacked so that they start powering down and leaving the platform. That's the reaction that has disappointed me the most.


I might have left a lot of examples and scenarios missing from the post, but I was hoping it will lead to some healthy discussion where we can continue to add upon it.

Let me know your views on this and how you feel about flags for disagreement of rewards in the comments.

Thanks for reading.




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This is a great post from the right angle. What bothers me the most about this is not just the witch hunt mentality, which reminds me of Monty Python. It's how people are treating each other. Group think takes over and a bandwagon effect of negative treatment snowballs. I'm not experienced enough to be able to weigh in on what's best, but I do want to say something that's been really bothering me about this...

Regardless of flags or disagreement, it's absurdly disappointing to see certain individuals believe their wealth and power on a digital platform gives them the right to be excessively verbally and emotionally abusive to anyone they so choose. There is simply no excuse. It's terrible. If you take away this platform and see any of these people in public, if they'd ever show their real face instead of an avatar, I'd imagine they'd be taught quite a lesson by a lot of people. It really disturbs me to see people confuse freedom of speech with the right to put people down, refer to them with vulgar terms, threaten, give ultimatums, etc..

I really hope they can see the bigger picture and realize that people are people, regardless of reward pools. I believe there is plenty of validation for the efforts and mission by some of these people, but how they treat others and put them down publicly to shame them is unacceptable. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way, but something needs to be said. Man to man.

Group think takes over and a bandwagon effect of negative treatment snowballs

I experienced this in a chat room recently, was not attractive.

I really agree with the rest you said, thanks for your input!

OK

You really need to stop sniping top comments with replies for visibility.

Reply to the post like everyone else.

Cant stop my laugh :D

Well I thought you are talking to this Mr. Ok :D

He edited it after.

He is up again commenting OK on my post. Jeez.

Thank you for sharing this important counterpoint to the prevalent perspective. While not everyone agrees with the downvoting for this reason, it is important to remember a few things:

  1. Both upvotes and downvotes (flags) are built into the protocol for specific reasons. These reasons are not secret, but are fully explained in the whitepaper.
  2. Upvotes earn curation rewards, while downvotes do not. This unbalanced schema is specifically intended to create an ecosystem where positive feedback is much more prevalent than negative feedback, because there are significant costs to negative feedback.
  3. The value of your upvotes and downvotes is directly proportional to your investment in the ecosystem. While there may be disagreements about whether people have short-term or long-term perspective on how they use their votes, you have to be invested for at least 13 weeks (or gain the trust/support of somebody else who is) for your votes to have any value. Theoretically, this encourages investors to make choices with their votes that will improve the long-term potential of Steem.
  4. While you may disagree with the way others use their votes, they have earned the right to vote however they want, either by virtue of buying into the system or from previous earnings.

Now I realize that people may take issue with any of these points, but the incentives are carefully structured. I would hope that people disagreeing with the outcomes will think about how the incentives lead to specific outcomes and how they can use their own SP to improve the ecosystem, instead of knee-jerk reactions and complaining.

I have seen many posts complaining about spam, with spam in the comments to that post that don't have downvotes from the post authors. If you hate spam, downvote it. If you reward spam (or ignore it) there will be more of it.

Well said. And I would add to that, just because someone has the right within the system to do something - because it is encoded in the software which is supported by witness consensus - doesn't mean it is a good right, and certainly not that everyone will like it.

In my opinion any rule book that equates wealth to power and has an extremely unbalanced distribution of wealth will result in a system that prioritizes wealth and preservation of wealth over life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. IMO Steemit fails badly there both in existing wealth distribution and equating wealth to curating power. Why not use reputation instead which can be earned and removed by the community?

Well said. Nothing that doesn't violate the NAP should receive negative treatment. I've posted over 15 comments on the matter on today alone. My standing is that nobody has the right to decide what anybody deserve and only has the right to act against a person who violate the NAP.

I can go to an country with an absolute monarchy. Get a diplomatic immunity and shoot a person in the head. The physics will work. The gun will work. No physical or legal laws will be broken. But that doesn't make it right. It just simply works within a system.

I wrote some posts about 8-9 months ago with a solution for how to mostly eliminate the need for 'disagreement over reward' downvotes:

https://steemit.com/steemit/@demotruk/flagging-over-rewards-is-necessary-but-also-toxic

https://steemit.com/steemit/@demotruk/up-and-down-votes-are-a-big-part-of-the-problem-on-steemit

Yeah I'm starting to think downvotes would be a lot better for the health of the platform. We can have the flags for the usual abuse, but having 10 votes a day to downvote with as well and maybe even receive curation rewards on them depending on how many others flag after you would do good.

Thankfully we are still in beta. :P

Thankfully we are still in beta

I wouldn't be so sure this will last. @relativityboy commented on a recently ticket I opened on GitHub that

We've been progressively moving away from 'beta' branding. [...] Expect the remaining beta tags [on the logo] to disappear in the coming months.

Exciting!

I prefer the 'downvote' conceptually over 'flag', but I still think about 90% of the time neither would be necessary if we introduced payout recommendations.

Why not both down vote and flag? I think it would be good to partially separate them out, where a down vote affects payout but not visibility or rep, and flag does everything it does now.

Perhaps put this in a post, open the discussion, and give feedback to the devs?

Really this would be a major upgrade, but it would also help separate payout from flagging where I notice where even non-negative accounts at 1-10 routinely disappear from Steemit.

The situation yesterday caused a lot of heads to spin, feeling - as you say - as an attack. Having talked things through with Transisto at The Writers Block throughout the night, into early this morning - in a mostly calm and measured way - a lot of what he said and put to us made a lot of sense and I do agree he is looking out for the platform as a whole and the reward pool. Unfortunately emotions get the best of people, especially where potential monetary rewards are concerned.

The key here I believe is open lines of communication and I applaud Transisto for coming to our group and expressing his viewpoint.

Unfortunately emotions get the best of people, especially where potential monetary rewards

Yeah, this is the biggest reason to it most of the time.

It's not just about the money, it's about someone having the ability to publicly trample you and degrade your hard work. How would you respond if a particularly rich client or investor came up to you in front of your co-workers and said "you're getting paid too much for your work, and I am going to talk to your boss about it"? Would your response be based on monetary interests alone?

It's not just about the money

especially where potential monetary rewards

"you're getting paid too much for your work, and I am going to talk to your boss about it"?

I'd probably discuss with him as to what made him say that and why he thinks that way. I wouldn't go ahead and leave 10 notes saying I'm quitting.

To have a discussion, there needs to be a platform to do so. Steemit doesn't quite offer one. The way I see it, Michelle's only way to communicate with transisto after he flagged her posts was to post on the blockchain and share her feelings. She was offended from the action she felt was humiliating to her and I don't blame her. I reacted the same way a week ago. Granted, one post was enough for me to vent, but Michelle can write 5,000 words a day while I (unfortunately) cannot. Writers. We type a lot.

Besides, it's easy to say you'd try and have a discussion, but imagine some self-entitled creep screaming at you in front of your coworkers that he would PAY to ensure everyone sees you're worth less than people think you do. And then imagine that you have no way to answer him aside from, well, angry notes.

To have a discussion, there needs to be a platform to do so.
Michelle's only way to communicate with transisto after he flagged her posts was to post on the blockchain

What? How are comments not the best place to do so, like we are doing right now?

but Michelle can write 5,000 words a day while I (unfortunately) cannot. Writers. We type a lot.

Then write in the comments that don't get automatically upvoted by bots.

but imagine some self-entitled creep screaming at you in front of your coworkers that he would PAY to ensure everyone sees you're worth less than people think you do.

As I see it this "self-entitled creep" removed some of the rewards and left a comment, I'm surprised not more "co-workers" defended him seeing as he was doing the right thing and re-distributed rewards of recycled posts he thought were making too much for the interaction and views they were getting. The way she acted on it was to handle it in "overtime" where she got paid to vent over 1 flag and make up for the rewards she lost while threatening to quit her job.

"What? How are comments not the best place to do so, like we are doing right now?"

Technically, there's little difference between posts and comments on the blockchain. I do however think she should have refused payout on those posts. I should have done so with mine, too.

"Then write in the comments that don't get automatically upvoted by bots."

When bernie decided to bury me, he downbotted all my comments too. So... that can go either way but I do agree that as soon as conversation was started, there was really no need for more public posts that are not in some way a contribution to the discussion on the topic of reward pool distribution. It sounds like transisto was willing to talk, but I think the talking should have happened before flagging took place.

I would very much like to point out that I did not mean to call any actual person or user a self-entitled creep, but rather an imaginary rich customer. Also, I think that metaphor for away from us.

Bottom line is - the flagging / downvoting mechanism is broken and unclear to your average steemian, and so flagging can feel like public flogging and not just in the financial sense.

I concur @techslut, the best hash comes out here in the reply. In fact, many a times, I see that the censorship outcome is way more powerful to flag a reply than to flag down the payout of the post.

My caveat is as discussed the other day with you that some content providers add value in many hidden (and unpaid) areas also.

For example a developer may get high rewards for a low quality post but spends a huge amount of time developing or helping out in various offsite platforms too. Should this be considered?

Yes, it should be considered and that could be one of the best reasons to discuss the flag with the flagger in a civilized manner in the comments. The flaggers are human also and might understand that the author is being rewarded for more than just the content he is providing unbeknownst to him.

@tarazkp I'm not techie at all...but I do value the time someone gives to make things better :) Best wishes.

I think you just described the purpose of @utopian-io - rewarding developers for contributing stuff that isn't just a post.

Agreed, just commented on a similar post. Think all of us need to try to act as adults - the flag is not simply an instruments that says: "You are Shit" - it is required in a lot cases here. And I learned to understand the view of the different personalities here on Steemit, i wrote a long post months ago about this. We have:

1 - Investor
2 - Engagers
3 - Content Creators
4 - Spammers / Scammers

Totally different people - it took me long to understand why flags can be good, I know it now.

Great post. I hope people will understand flags better in the future and not see them as a threat to their work here on the platform but instead as constructive criticism.

The problem is though, if the flag is not explained or with a crazy logic behind it.

Like "You don't support flat earth theory, you don't deserve this big payout" which is basically a disagreement on rewards. And will most likely not construct anyone on any level :D

There's some good thoughts here, and to some extent I recognize myself and my own reaction to my first flag in your descriptions.

I think you can see it both ways, there's good arguments on both sides.

I think whatever power you give the flagger, it will be abused. Like with government and surveillance. It's human nature. I think there's no way on earth flagging will be fair even half the time! Which, if true, means it mathematically cancels out its own usefulness (but I'm here talking about manual personal flagging, not steamcleaners, and also posts, not comments).

And, again, mathematically, or logically, flagging a worthless post has the same effect as rewarding a worthy one. Plus, when you remove rewards and redistribute them, you don't know where they're gonna end up: maybe they will end up on another post you hate equally! Whereas rewarding a post you like guarantees you agree with the distribution.

So you have a vote, and you can use it either to remove money - and have it end up who knows where, and create some bad vibes in the process - or use it to reward a post you like.

So I think flagging should be used rarely. Unless we're talking about the comment section of your own post, in which case I agree flagging is very useful to combat spam.

When it comes to posts, I think flagging should be contained within proper bodies with clear and fair rules, like steemcleaners, and whoever's itching to flag improper posts should just delegate his voting power to these bodies.

I disagree with regards to flagging to reduce potential post rewards. As you mentioned, there are numerous examples of posts earning a vastly disproportionate payout, and we know what they are: spam, bot abuse, plagiarism, and the like. However, when it comes to genuine disagreement over the reward v. the content of the post, a flag in this regard negates the stake used by other users to reward the author. Functionally, I know that's not how it works, but ultimately that's what it comes down to. User A upvotes a post and brings it $12, let's say. User B comes by, takes a look, and flags it, reducing the net effect of that $12 down to $3. In effect, User B is telling User A, "no no, you made a mistake. Here, let me fix it for you."

It can be called reward pool reallocation or any other term, but that's essentially what it boils down to: "I know better than you what deserves these rewards, so let me fix your mistake."

My suspicion with regards to the whitepaper is that the intent was to guide users to downvote blatantly cheap posts to fight upvoting collusion, i.e. three-line posts upvoted by a group of people to guarantee curation rewards. I could be wrong, and @ned should clarify the intent of that particular guidance, but that's my impression after being here for more than a year.

It can be called reward pool reallocation or any other term, but that's essentially what it boils down to: "I know better than you what deserves these rewards, so let me fix your mistake."

This is the reason I call out on disagreement on rewards as commie BS. Nobody has the right to interfere with another persons rewards that were gained without breaking the NAP. Reward pool rape is a manufactured crime and Reward re-distribution is simply just communism. Since when did the blockchain space went adopting from Marx and Mao?

Re-distribution is an infringement on a persons property and his/her sweat of the brow.

Agreed. Unless there's some sort of unjustifiable gaming of the system, there is no ethical reason to "balance" reward payouts on good content. It's arbitrary and arrogant.

I see you have a banner now supporting Genesis mining.
They have a lot of problems, payouts are really late, the last daily payout I got was the 15th of Nov...etc.
Be careful with that, you might get heat from ppl for suggesting that site..

Oh really? I haven't actually checked up on it in a while, will do so, thanks for the info!

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