Alts left right out and KYC

in #steem5 years ago

I was thinking a little about the 30,000 odd signups in the last 5 weeks and was wondering what would cause it. are they new members or are they alts. It is of course impossible to know for the most part since there is no KYC for Steem. I was thinking about this too a little but I will get to that at the end since I am unsure of the validity.

Not all alt accounts are nefarious.

Alts can be a healthy sign for Steem. If you haven't been paying attention, there are a lot of Dapps on the platform that people want to try but, they don't want to clog up their feed with a lot of different content for various reasons. For example, while I don't use an alt myself (I don't count @smallsteps as mine at all - I am just the current admin) think that my autovoters wouldn't want to be voting posts from @actifit. I know people who lost followers because they were hunting for @steemhunt for example.

What this means is that a lot of people have created alternative accounts to handle their "off-topic" content that they use for various purposes so as not to confuse (or annoy) their audience. This makes a lot of sense and I might do similar at some point as I tend not to use the various new applications because of these reasons.

Buuuut.... here is a sign.

This is a sign that something needs to be done in order t be able to separate content out effectively across consumption interfaces so that viewers don't have to look at all content from one user unless they want. But, it shouldn't be viewer driven, it should be contributor driven. Do you know what I mean by this?

A platform has unique markers and a contributor could 'tag' their content to be hidden through content aggregators like steemit.com or busy.org etc. Then, their audience could choose to opt-in to see all content or some filtered view of all content. There is a good reason for this from both perspectives of supply and demand.

The supplier can maintain one account and through a type of permissions (remember everything is all available still) they can dictate what posts are visible for their audience on various platforms without extra clicks. People spend a lot of time developing a brand for their account and having to build a new one every time there is a stick application released is going to be impossible. So, this means that they can keep their main account and potentially even get support for their new form content from their old users who opt-in to see it.

From a consumer demand perspective, a viewer doesn't have to be exposed to other forms of media if they so choose but, can still potentially see what is coming through the feeds. From an auto-voter perspective, a contributor could mark various content "Do not vote" and the autovoters could have a check that skips it in the same way they can be set to vote on a certain number of posts but not more, in a 24 hour period.

Building a brand

It is expensive to invest into building a brand but a Steem account should be designed to be universally used across the ecosystem, including when SMTs arrive. What this means is that once an account brand is built, it can traverse the Steem-net and be recognizable through both social relationships and SP without having to dilute its brand value because of the type of content it wants to engage with.

The applications should be cooperating and working out ways that for eample, my account can use their interface for whatever purpose it is designed without me losing brand value on another interface. So, rather than competing for Steem users, it should be empowering Steem users to use as many applications as possible and that means simplifying it to a main account and providing customization filters for both the contributor and the viewer on how they want to present and view the content.

Mass opportunity

There is a massive advantage in being able to do this as we can see from the world of centralized and monetized platforms that are banning, demonetizing and disenfranchising their users. What they do is allow a user to build and even support that user to become popular and bring people on as consumers and then, change the rules of the game. While the account is effectively dead, the consumers remain to keep consuming content from others. It ramps up usage of the platform and means they can always support the trends. The contribution account however is unable to take most of their foloowers with them and even if they take some, they have to invest into building a new home.

Fuck that.

Steem can instead empower users to both build and give them the flexibility to move across Steem platforms with not only their Steem Power in hand, but their hard fought for audiences. What this encourages is that people build one account that has as much social capital (engagement work) as possible to ensure that wherever they go, their reputation precedes them.

This means that as SMTs are introduced and gain traction, accounts are able to not only traverse into new streams, they are able to pull in new users onto those platforms too. Rather than competing, applications are able to leverage each other's success and strengthen and stabilize the entire Steem ecosystem.

KYC - Jelly

We are also going to have to face the facts that for mass adoption of the technology, eventually Know Your Customer rules are going to have to arrive into the scene. While most normal users won't have much of a problem with this as they already do it on various platforms now, the idealistic users are not going to want to reveal themselves. If you have a lot of Steem, that might be fine and you can still earn for the time being but a new user is probably going to struggle as unverified.

There are many reasons for and against this but the positive use cases for anonymity are very narrow and provide lower benefit in comparison to the negatives of anonymity. However, Pseudonymous accounts should be quite easily possible in a number of ways and I was thinking that perhaps there could be something like a verification through a bank account or maybe some other check, with the verifier held behind a metamask type plugin like Steem Keychain. That way, it would provide a much more trustworthy one account system most people could accept without feeling that there wasn't enough Jelly in the KYC when they got bent over.

Moving along

What I m hoping is that through the future development paths of the platform there is much more support for ease of use development that empowers users to take full advantage of steem without having to worry about what kind of content they are interested in. A person could use many apps that post to the blockchain but still keep their core content brand clean and on topic without either diluting brand capital or looking erratic in delivery. It would be nice to have a "Mark as Shitpost" option that only people interested in viewing that kind of thing could opt-in to the discovery.

What I think is really going to take Steem mainstream is being able to connect Steem applications to the real world and I feel that part o that is in the simplification that provides the benefits of building a main account without the drawbacks of using it for many purposes. Not only will it remove a lot of the needs for non-nefarious alts, it increases the potential of a main account by being able to consolidate resources.

If you build a following, that following shouldn't be able to be removed by a centralized authority. This is what YouTube, Twitter and Facebook do every time they demonetize, shadowban or remove users. It is against both the user implicated and the viewers who have chosen to follow them. I wonder what would happen if with a click of a button, a demonetized user could pull all of their followers onto another platform with them.

On Steem, they won't even need to click a button, it is automatic. This is a wing of freedom of information.

Taraz
[ a Steem original ]

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KYC / AML rules have turned banks against their customers and reversed the onus of proof - innocent until proven guilty - that is at the heart of freedom and rule of law.
Any organisation that starts treating its customers as presumed criminals will soon lose those customers, especially when a better alternative arises.

Crypto is in part a rebellion against KYC.
I have had a lot of professional involvement in going after the money trail of terrorists and I can tell you that the vast majority comes from governments, including naive western ones.
KYC / AML rules are not necessary to confront terrorism or criminal activity.
They arise from lazy authoritarianism and penalise the innocent while the guilty can always get around them.

Do you use Steemconnect or Steem keychain to log into any apps using your keys? So each app knows who you are from the key. What I am saying is that a person could be verified human but can be masked at all other levels. It could be that there is a randomisation of human accounts so it is completely unreadable but, one can verify as human in some way somewhere. For the people who are going to build a brand across platforms, this won't be a problem anyway as they will be known by near default.

It’s fine that there is Proof of Human as long as Proof of Identity is voluntary. Remember the Australia Card Debate?

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These days, proof of human is the challenge. Nope, I have been out of Australia 15 years and don't remember coming across it. I will have to back track it and see what it was about.

It was in the late 1980s.

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I was thinking a little about the 30,000 odd signups in the last 5 weeks and was wondering what would cause it.

I would assume it has to do with the threat of forking Steemit's stake away and the need to anonymize their stake. If those accounts magically power up a significant amount of Steem and don't interact with the platform much it will be a dead giveaway.

KYC
There are many reasons for and against this but the positive use cases for anonymity are very narrow and provide lower benefit in comparison to the negatives of anonymity.

Hard disagree. Anonymity is the absolute most important thing of this movement. In reality, there is no real argument here because KYC can't come to Steem.

KYC is expensive and it centralizes all the information in one place to be accessed by an authority. Who's going to pay for it? Who's going to secure it? KYC isn't scalable in a decentralized atmosphere. It literally can't happen.

The best way to employ KYC in a decentralized setting is to have a solid system of reputation. The account might be anonymous, but the account's reputation is transparent.

It's not easy to build reputation and get people to trust you. The act of burning an account's reputation to exploit the system and then create a new account would not be worth it with a valid reputation dynamic.

Anonymity is the absolute most important thing of this movement.

I don't think that in the long run anonymity will hold as the most important thing, transparency will. As far as it goes for who will pay for it, there is likely going to be a whole range of services that will spring up to leverage it that anyone with a bank account or verified twitter or something will be able to utilize. Is it what you find important? maybe not but most people in this world don't care about anonymity. Pseudonimity possibly.

anyone with a bank account

That's exactly why it can't operate in such a way. The cryptosphere gives the most benefit to the people who aren't even banked in the first place. It is a network that deals in trust in places where corruption is the highest. It is an escape for hyperinflation.

The last thing anyone is going to do is identify themselves as their fiat currency is being printed into the dirt and the men with guns are looking for citizens trying to escape the clutches of central banking. These things are happening right now, today. India, Iran, and Venezuela are not pleased by the exit that crypto provides.

It doesn't matter what I think. The implementation of KYC is digitally incompatible with the most valuable crypto applications. The only customer worth knowing is the digital reputation of the "anonymous" account in question.

One doesn't build reputation in the cryptoshpere by linking a fiat bank account. There will be an @edicted reputation and a @tarazkp reputation. Our reputations will take years to cultivate and, in all likelihood, we aren't going to sacrifice our account's reputation for some paltry short-term gains.

Centralization continues to melt away over time as decentralized features are put in place. Consolidated power structures can not be built on these shifting sands and expect to stand the test of time.

The bank verification was used as an example but it is about proof of human not identity. This is getting more and more difficult these days.

There are absolutley zero benefits for an individual to follow KYC rules.

I find it interesting because people have this feeling that they are anonymous here, they are not. Very, very few people would have successfully covered enough of their personal information.

Interesting perspective as I have never thought that many would have alt accounts for these purposes although understand it as I have not tried other different front-ends like d-like and others due to concerns like spamming my followers. I currently use Actifit and never thought of using an alt as it felt like part of the experience is to share with the community the journey within the ecosystem. I hope the platform develops to consider these details so that we can make the journey more complete for everyone.

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I currently use Actifit and never thought of using an alt as it felt like part of the experience is to share with the community the journey within the ecosystem.

I think it is part of the experience but, once you start to roll in content from 20 different applications that do similar and what is 'real content' starts to get drowned in ones own activity. I don't think it should be that way but without a decent sorting set of tolls it will be, especially if Steem does what is promised and keeps decentralizing through apps.

I think anyone who can put the time in now and build a truly exceptional user interface that sorts content in a way other than moneytary and allows you to do what you were talking about above will be the new steemit.com.

Im keeping an eye on steeve and steempeak right now as they seem to doing the most to innovate in this area. I maybe wrong but I think there is a need for improvement in the interface and whoever can meet the need the best will see the most users in the next bull run.

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Im keeping an eye on steeve and steempeak right now as they seem to doing the most to innovate in this area.

Yep, they are the two that are doing the most at the moment and both from different perspectives. I would like to see an "Account management application" that allows a user to set global sttings and perhaps manage specific settings across applications.

the best way to do this is perhaps to add information to the blockchain that all front ends can go and take a look at and recognize what preferences a user may have. Then that front end may or may not even impliment those features. How many front ends would actually do it? It puts a large burden of UI work and also work to make a UI search for and save those settings and I'm guessing slows down the UI because before they display the posts they would have to check against the list of what should be filtered out. Maybe something could be done at the API level. Not sure.

Also it may be worth waiting to see how communities solves this by compartmentalizing topics and groups of people with similar interest.

I have no idea about communities yet but the first time I heard about the coming soon was in February 2017 :D

What I am hoping for however is that an account can maintain its 'clean presence' on a platform while still using other platforms for their purposes. The general content interfaces put everything in together (mostly) and it gets kind of messy for viewers who might not care much for some content. I remember that when people were sharing their tweets to Facebook, it was annoying :D What ever happened to Facebook anyway?

Have you used keychain? It probably wouldnt ve very straight forward right now, but I think you could use keychain to do that right now.

Well that would only work on chrome right now since it doesn't have a app on ios or android yet.

Have you used keychain? It probably wouldnt ve very straight forward right now, but I think you could use keychain to do that right now.

Yep, I mentioned it in the article as the verifier but it could do several things.

@yabapmatt @aggroed @stoodkev ^ any ideas?

Yes! I started using actifit this week but only plan to post on days when I’ve done an exceptional amount of physical activity for the reasons you’ve mentioned. I had also considered creating a separate account to maintain the credibility of my blog but decided against it as I think that’s bad for the steem ecosystem overall. Some of the features you discuss here sound awesome.

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You're all class, mate :)
I'd like to see a condenser give us the option to unfollow topics. You start posting actifit content, and I don't want to see it, I just unfollow #actifit, and my feed goes from being a chronological list of posts by people I follow; to being a chronological list of non-actifit posts by people I follow.
If I click on your name, and go to your blog/profile page, I'll still see the actifit posts, so I can always go back and see how much of your content my filters have kept out of my feed.
@jarvie; @asgarth is this something to consider for steempeak?

Filter out posts with that topic keyword?
From the whole feed? Can't just start with something easy like from a profile? Hahaha

How much will this feature actually be used by the community at large? What are some other examples and how much would they be used. I'm trying to think of if I would actually bother setting these up and for which topics and how often they'd trigger?

I've heard a few rumblings from people sick of hearing about steemmonsters for example.
I'm sure if steempeak offered them a way to only see non-steemmonsters posts in their feed, non-magicdice and perhaps non-actifit; they'd be more inclined to use steempeak over another front end.
Authors would then be less hesitant to diversify; knowing that anyone who only follows them for crochet posts won't be tempted to unfollow when they dip their toe into politics.
If you wanted to really give Asgarth a workout; the topic line on the author page could feed back information about what percentage of their viewership the post will lose for each topic, as they type them in.

Also the other commenter above may be right that communities may end up fixing a lot of this anyway.

What you are suggesting is similar to 'Mute' but for topics right?

Correct. I'd love to write more about the Adelaide meetups, for example, but those following me for political observations aren't interested in meetings they'll probably never attend; and I don't want to lose them by posting stuff they don't want to read.
Unfollow is too black and white. The real issue is that authors are presented as all or nothing propositions and they don't have to be.

When communities comes out would you just post those into the community? Would it be mostly a non-issue at that time?

I'm not sufficiently well-versed in how communities is going to look, except it'll be like subreddits? If communities are going to replace topics, with users joining and leaving communities, then that would take the place of muting topics, I imagine.

My hope was (is?) That this sort of function would be a part of the "communities" upgrade. Each night I post an actifit report that is really only even slightly of interest to other actifit users. Having these marked and segregated from my main blog posts (as you say viewable to anyone on an opt-in system) would be preferable to using an alt account or loosing followers because they have no interest in actifit. Could "communties" fix this?

P.s. I love actifit, I'm just using it as an example.

Could "communties" fix this?

I am not sure from a technical standpoint so I will say YES! :D

Well, the communities could fix it if they agree to build with certain guidelines and markers necessary to filter and hide etc. All users need more control and potentially it would be possible to have 'universal basic settings' that could be applied through account settings to every application.

I guess it is down to the developers to build these functions into their front ends and dApps. And for the Auto voters to implement the extra filters as needed.

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Pretty much I think. Getting agreement is not easy in a decentralized environment, but perhaps some of the larger ones could work together and create something useful. I do think there would be value in empowering users across applications more than competing. Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and Youtube for example have different use cases but, Steem can be all of them plus much more.

Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and Youtube for example have different use cases but, Steem can be all of them plus much more.

That statement in a nutshell is why I am here. So much potential if we can get it right.

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Just so you know we are working on communities as we speak over on steempeak with @shredz7

I think it does help with a lot of issues. Using the actifit example I think a lot of people would put their post in an actifit or exersize community. But many people may still throw it on their main blog for what they think is more exposure or if that effects autovotes but one would assume putting it into a community of people that actually care is better advertisement anyway. Not sure.

But communities is a way to put content where people will actually be more likely to care

Would it be possible to say have a global setting through keychain (I know this isn't you but you understand it) that can say "don't show actifit updates". Then Steempeak can read the setting and filter actifit posts out no matter where they appear. In the user blogroll one could have a "reveal all content" option.

This way, keychain could be used to dictate settings and interfaces could leverage it as a settings repository.
Simple checkbox system for keychain would suffice for a test.

Keychain only signs transactions. So they wouldn't be a place to do any filter settings.

Would be nice to have an account management setting application then that can hold a host of options the interfaces can draw from.

One obvious downside of posting under your name, should Steem really take off, is having all your money matters in full public view. That is why Jerry Banfield was always so diligent in calculating his taxes on his Steem income. That's just one aspect of it. Rich people attract all manner of predators of which the tax man is only one. :)

Like you I haven't used the Dapps as a post. I don't want it to reflect on my feed as it would put me off. I could never understand someone answering a question on musing thinking their answer was good enough to pass as a post. Maybe some were, but it is still not a post. I had never considered an alt account for those Dapps though and it is something I will look into.

I had never considered an alt account for those Dapps though and it is something I will look into.

It is worth it for people who want to play but personally I don't have the time to do much with alts. It would be nice if I didn't feel I even needed an alt to use different apps though.

I agree. Why does a Steemhunt post have to show on your feed. I would love to tick a box so it doesn't reflect.

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