The haejin effect

in #steem6 years ago

To me, the network has changed a lot in the past 6 months. Riches have been obtained, either fairly or unfairly, and this has galvanized a race - a race that has made people more selfish with an increasing pressure on the rewards pool we all share.

It's never been about content

Is what I hear a lot at present, and maybe that is true. Maybe it was only about producing something, anything, to place a vote on and take your rightful stake from the rewards pool each day.

I'd don't think that's always been the case, and I know many that did, and do try to show their proof of brain each day, to produce something that will also interest others. What I do notice though, is an increasing shift of people trying, to those who are not. And in addition to that, an increasing number of accounts (big and small), not offering their votes to others.

The Haejin effect

In the summer of last year, our famous analyst was earning cents on his posts. Consistent and persistent, things started to pick up in the autumn (as did the markets), and things really started to take off. From $2 to $5, to $20, on each of his 8 - 10 posts each day, and without any of his own stake introduced from outside, the crypto-analysts work started paying off.

As the markets went into overdrive late last year, he attracted the vote of a largely silent whale. This vote alone, was adding $100-$200 to his posts, 8-10 times a day. Now, there's not a lot more that can be discussed about this being fair/abuse/right/wrong, but the general voiced consensus was, and still is, is that the rewards are too large. And of course, there is an option to flag, if any person feels this to be the case.

And so the flags came. Individually, collectively, night and day. Steemit staff, Whales, Dust accounts, and recently, accounts who didn't even press the button! Yep even the code has seemingly had a pop.

However, the account carries on doing what they've been doing since the start, producing content, and steadily growing wealthier. However since last winter (in the northern hemisphere), the world 'steadily' is a bit of an understatement. I have not checked the earnings, it is what it is. I do happen to disagree with the rewards size, but that is largely irrelevant to my post today.

The flagging still continues, and I do feel that most of it is for a 'disagreement on rewards' - which is 'OK', as far as the system says so. But in some cases, the whistle-blowers never really got started - And if they did, they gave up quickly to pursue 'other ventures' when they realized efforts seemed fruitless, or not in the best interests of self. There is an obvious exception to this rule, and you shall call him Lord of the Steem.

Going nuclear / going green (with envy)

So the options were, and still are:

  • Flag haejin and return rewards to the pool we all share
  • Dont flag haejin and reward the accounts producing the content we enjoy
  • Dont flag haejin and try to 'keep up'

It's the 3rd option which I see more and more of, and it's this option which I dislike the most out of the three. Those jealous of the weekly income of the crypto-analyst, who are not wanting to use their own stake to return rewards to a shared pool, are now up-scaling efforts to make sure that as much as possible of what is left, is coming to them.

And it's pulling more and more accounts in to do the same.

The first reason is the loss of votes from accounts that have already decided to operate selfishly, and the second is linked in that those accounts now not getting the votes from their once peers, see no other option to 'keep up', but to do likewise.

Dis the Content

So just how do you produce 8 - 10 pieces of quality content as a respected and already established Steem account holder that holds an number of trusted auto-votes, day in day out?

Answer: You dont.

Personally, I can barely produce one blog a day, and the jury is certainly out over each one of those being 'quality'.

But anyway, the quality seemingly has to come down, to boost output.

image.png

The 'risk' here is a loss of respect amongst peers, and following on from that a loss of votes, manual and auto. (If you have the stake to support yourself though, who cares about those votes?)

Well assuming the other votes don't matter, and hey, you might pick up some new friends, reputation amongst peers might, so the best method (that I have sadly observed), is to create an alternate account.

Or 2.

Or 4.

4 Is good. 4 accounts producing two pieces of lower quality content a day, receiving two full votes. Add those to the 1 or 2 votes you give yourself each day, and it's a wrap. The added bonus here is that you don't even need to respond and build a community around those accounts, just produce the content, (yes meme's are good) don't engage, and slap your vote on it.

Keeping up with the hae-joneses

It's an English idiom, so i'm going to ruin what joke there is by dropping this in:

Keeping up with the Joneses" is an idiom in many parts of the English-speaking world referring to the comparison to one's neighbor as a benchmark for social class or the accumulation of material goods. To fail to "keep up with the Joneses" is perceived as demonstrating socio-economic or cultural inferiority. source

In the real world though, you would hope that those striving to keep up with the Joneses, are not doing so to the detrimental effect of everyone else in the community. (But maybe they are, and then what else can I expect to happen here?)

Producing low quality content on alt. accounts looks bad on you, and it looks bad and is lowering the moral of the community.

Be happy with the wealth you have and help bring abundance to our network. Please?


Cheers

Asher @abh12345

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I am one half of the @steemcommunity witness - Find out more about our project here

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Great write up I appreciate your unbiased view.
I wonder how many people were upset with haejin 10 post per day when it was only worth $1 total? Now am I in complete agreement about how he goes about things no, but at the same time who am I to tell someone else how to spend their money?

If anyone takes the time to build an empire, they technically are not obligated to build the next person.

This platform gives back what you put in, go through my past post and look at how many $.01 post I have. It all changed when I put the money and now I reap rewards from my investment.

So I ask this question, how much money can you expect to withdraw from a bank you never deposited into?

Looks like you have been through some difficulties. I'm upset I have had some of my comments flagged but that must have really sucked when starjuno killed some of your posts.

Meh not really.

Cheers :)

I wonder how many people were upset with haejin 10 post per day when it was only worth $1 total?

Zero. (and same answer to the last question) But at this point 'disagreement of rewards' is not in play and so the number of posts is not important?

I agree with you. No-one is under obligation to help others, I'm just not a huge fan on the standing on people to grab onto the coat-tails of someone you don't really need to.

I mentioned it in comment to him when he was averaging 20 dollars a day after watching it from 10ish. I suggested it looked spammy and was attacked for it. A few weeks later, rancho stepped in.

Yeah as I say, opinons on that are well versed, and I too see the rewards as high.

What I'm not doing though is attempting to spam this BC 8-10 times a day, whilst throwing my own stake via alt accounts at this 'work', and pretending to be a solid witness - and neither is haejin.

I had to unfollow at that point in time. My feed was totally flooded. Thing is, whatever we won't tolerate when it gets bigger and bolder, we shouldn't tolerate that when it's little or inconsequential.

For me, based on the numbers, 20-30 was my limit as to the value. If he went to 4 posts a day combining them for 100 each, it would have been fine. 2000 a day for only being accurate in a bull market is pathetic. I can get the same strike rate now.

Totally unapologetic, that one. Even the bulls he's predicting can't get his followers $2k in a day, unless they bought shitloads of it, and frankly, who'd be that stupid, when everyone knows it's all speculations anyways.

Thing is to look away and become busy supporting the ones who are actually adding value to the blockchain. He's got something coming. I'm sure.

Onto other things though. I'm all in for friendships and engagement on here. how do I contact you? Discord?

Let me rephrase, I don’t like the thought of anyone feeling entitled to more if they haven’t put in the work.

I guess I see it like this. If someone went to school for 8 years, and worked their way up a companies ladder be obligated to buy lunch daily? As they are taking s larger portion of the conpsnies payroll.

To be honest, my post isn't about haejin, or the people like you who have invested heavily here.

It's more about the production of poor content, merely to form a circle around to wack one off to, in order to try and 'keep up' with someone, who may have been to school for 8 years :)

You mean, we can't do a "free-to-play to Legend" attempt (Hearthstone reference) on Steemit? Well, that's a shame.

At least, this whole ordeal creates great drama that's worth its popcorn.

This is why Steemit is doomed.

Any system will be "gamed", or exploited. The current pace of Reward Pool ripoffs will only accelerate. I'd even argue that there are more bots than humans on the platform -- and the accounts that ARE controlled by a human are numerous for the purpose of maximizing returns.

It doesn't take a genius to see that even with Steemit's "gating" or capital controls that prevent instant cash-out, this is a feedback loop that will eventually overwhelm it entirely.

It isn't just this haejin guy, or any single one -- there's an entire constellation of grifters siphoning blood from Steemit's cooling corpse with no regard to long-term viability.

Welcome to the decline.

Well stop giving them the straws.

I don't support them, I've even fought people that have ripped off content and parade it on this platform -- look at my next-to-last post in my blog. Its all there.

The ones giving straws are the Steemit developers, blithely ignoring all the problems until it is too late.

https://steemit.com/@crypto2crypto/comments

Self upvoting your comments is scumbaggery

Do explain the difference between a self upvote and using a bot to upvote? I’ll wait.

You are worse than Haejin, at least he writes ten blogs a day. How is this comment worth 14 dollars? IMG_20180508_100147.jpg

Because I voted for it. That’s how.

Is this worth 14 dollars? IMG_20180508_100520.jpg

How many times you do that in one day? How much are you taking out of the reward pool?

Loading...

This is what we need more of, a balanced conversation about the issues at hand not distorted with superfluous virtue signaling.

You know what has me feeling a little down, did you see the bloomberg interview with Ned? It's short... watch it, when he gets asked about poor content making it to the trending page, watch his body language, don't just listen to the words.

Something has to give, I'm with @mattclarke on this one we really did f it up in the fork.

I saw that too @meno... and I have seen a few comment exactly on that point as well!

Cheers.

Is there a link to a video of him where its not the graphics while he's being asked that question? :)

We haven't been completely successful with that

upvote!

presactly!

She was leading the conversation so shed light on the inner workings and then she delivered the sledge hammer to the temple.

but... People have said that the content so far is pretty low quality, given the fact that some of these users are just kind of, trying to earn a quick buck.

I had to laugh... I know I should not, but I'm sure he did not see that coming.

I can’t agree more.
We can’t survive alone but we also can’t always think that your followers will upvote everypost day in and day out. Because they just can’t all be good.
@acesontop wrote a great post about it today based in the fact that I did loose a dolphin as follower because I did start to post about different topics.
People should use their votes on the content they do think that are worth it and not because they will fear that other will stop upvoting their posts.
I do believe that lots of people do upvote Haejin posts to score some curation awards! That’s also what I did in the beginning but I don’t do it anymore!

People are here to make a bit of cash, me too! But I'm also here because i like the place, I like the idea, and I see the potential.

The race to chase the ace is helping none of us though, and the final result could well be meltdown :/

That’s true if is like biting in the hand that does feed you!

I have to agree that a lot of people do it to get curation rewards and with the hope that the author or one of his circle jerkers will upvote their comment or maybe even a blog of theirs.

I have this one person in my community that loves the TA and things that it adds value to her because she uses it to trade.

Yet to me it means nothing and the absurd amount is just nuts.5-7% of the total pool wow. Then their no engagement nothing put back into the system and is just a cash cow.

I had to roll my eyes when she was defending him to newbies that we should emulate him and that their is no need for dramatic posts, or stories or engagement. Money is what moves Steem. I just shaked my head and closed the chat. People idolize him and would like to game the system as well as he does.

It really puts me at odds.

I also have no interest in TA because in my opinion sentiment is still the driving force of the cryptomarkets!
I also don’t mind if people do upvote their own post if they interact and also upvote post and comments from others. Anything below %5 self votes is acceptable for me!
I just did unfollow him and trying to stay away from it!
I try to keep a positive view in Steem and focus my energy on the people who deserve my attention!
I decided to leave my niche and it is showing. 1 dolphin and 1 minnow decided to unfollow me in the past 3 day but, while I do find it a loss, I now have more interaction on my posts than I ever had.
If this will slow down my progress on the Steem blockchain than I will accept this situation with a smile!

and he is at a whopping 92.17% according to http://steemocean.com/voter/haejin

Yeah me and my brother used to follow him in twitter and saw that as many as he had good TAs he had as much as bad ones because the Cryptomarket is all about the movement of whales and their whims.

Sort of like Steemit hahahha

I believe that there is a steemit account who does a simulation how much money you would have lost or gained if you would have followed al his advice.
Don’t know the account anymore!

Oh man I would love to see that hahahaha maybe some beer might jog your memory!

Its @truthtrader

He havent posted in a while, but i think he os working on comparing haejin calls to coins chosen at random.

Ohhh gotta add that then to my follow and I want to see that.

If you check my account you'll see haejin was the first person I followed here on steemit. It seems a little weird now, because I don't even open his posts now.
I am not exactly sure how I came about knowing his account on steem and as a newbie he seemed pretty big deal to me here.
The problem now is that I don't find his analysis unique in anyway. Have no idea what to think when posts with similar or even better analysis than his get zero views (not that view button exists anymore).
As you say that one man alone is not a threat but the problem is what he has come to represent. I don't not think flagging is doing anything to stop this. I think the best idea still is to go about up voting content that we prefer.

i have to say ive stayed out of the flag wars, however, i too was new and got support from his group. it was very quiet and then went away.
he never flagged me, but the more i looked at bernie as a hero, with time i saw he flagged more minnows than haijin ever did. the more research i dug up, the more i saw there are many hypocrites and many more vying for attention to get more and more whale votes. this is a game to so many people. also money for those in dire need. some people will do anything for attention. after 160 days on this platform, isnt it reasonable to conclude that finding good people through the drama and ensuring quality of our own blogs the best we can do? whales got there for a reason, they invested early.
neutrality is key in this game. getting flagged has worked out for some and ruination for others. slippery slope indeed.

I commented and voted on haejin's posts in the beginning, but my post today isn't really about how I feel about his content and is more about how others have acted since his boom :)

I wouldn't really have a problem with high earnings post if it was competing on a level playing field with other similar content. For me the problem arises because some other guys I follow do a much better analysis and don't get a tenth of the rewards this other user is raking in.

Would to you share their profiles to see what they are about?

I always thought Haejin's TAs ignored sentiment where too mathematical and took into account those fake wick peaks that are either bots testing for ceiling or confused traders hitting the wrong button.

Anyway i am always looking for good TA to watch and learn.

Hi Hash. Totally agree. I know the one you are talking about and he has helped me a lot already. i was worried he was going to give up at one point as he couldn't understand why he wasn't making 0.20 per post.

You did a perfect job up there Ash, it pretty much sums up what I've noticed on here too. Hell if they they couldn't take him down entirely, at least the second option looked good and would have been the best thing to do if anyone had the long-term concern for the platform. Old writers are improving daily, but it seems the votes are getting lower. New members? Well, not so much. The "we can't stop him, So we're gonna act like him" mindset is what they opted for. And it's really sobering. Getting new extra accounts to do the dirty job seems to be the "in" thing now for these guys. That way, their main account looks good, and no one knows.

Thanks for the eye opener, Ash.

Epic post! Had to resteem this. Or as you might call it: Thanks for showing your proof of brain again :-)

I agree that the platform (rather: the eco-system) has changed for worse, and here's my take:

No changes are made without changing the algorithm.

  1. You can't force people to post max. X posts per day as a sign of fairness towards the other competitors who're aiming to get their part of the rewards pool.

  2. You furthermore can't force anybody to produce something meaningful, since everybody has a different interpretation of that.

  3. You can't centralize a decentralized environment :-) Whether we can do what the hell we want to do (within the given frame), or not.

  4. You can change the algorithm (reward curve) and make selfishness, aggrandizement and other trendy stuff become unprofitable, thus unpopular. You can e.g. delete the trending page and solve one of the biggest problems of the platform. You can do things. Or you can sit and watch and even confirm on TV that your application has a quality problem...

Steem doesn't have a quality problem! Steem does have a structural problem. There are tons of high quality posts submitted on Steem every single day. They're just not visible to most of the community members.

But I think we've talked about all this a hundred times already :-)

Thanks Marly!

We have spent a lot of time discussing the above.

The algorithm can change, and so can people - in an instant if they wish!

Pretty sure its only the 2nd that has changed in the past 6 months, and not for the best :/

Yes, an early adopter of Steemit, that recognizes that there is a lot of good quality content. I know what my content is, but I am not here to really "create" content, I am here to view the content. I am an audience member, a one person nielsen rater, a voter and a commenter on content. I find a lot of content on steemit that is worthwhile. Yes there is a lot of crap, but that just means I click away and find something else.

The greed issue on steemit really does not need to be a drastic overhaul. Fixing the greed issue that Asher has brought up only requires 3 changes, those 3 changes however will never be implemented because they have the potential to end the greed cycle.

  1. Limit self votes to two 100% up votes a day.
  2. When downvoting for rewards, be able to select the rewarder (the one big vote giver), and leave the posters Reputation unchanged, but the vote givers Reputation takes a hit. (No more pissed off whales slamming poor minnows, unless it is their vote that gets picked.) If multiple people downvote the same reward the hit to Reputation grows.
  3. Kill of all vote buying selling bots, manual and curation trails only allowed.

But I won't be holding my breath for any of those changes. At least more and more of these, here's a problem I see, what can we do to get a discussion going about it post.

Linear rewards.
The steem white paper spells out exactly why we needed quadratic and what would happen if we went linear; and it could not have been more accurate.

I guess i had to jump in on this... Quadratic rewards would have made the original reward pool raping far..... far worse than it is now. if not for the linear rewards, people dont have a chance at having a share at the rewards pool because it would have all been taken away by the silent whale.

Now im not saying that anyone should have any rights on the rewards pool, no one is entitled to anything here but i would imagine the whole rewardpoolrape drama would have much more devastating effect on user adoption had HF19 Linear Reward not been implemented. Imagine a new user coming in and seeing short TA posts making tens of thousands a piece and everyone else gets virtually nothing. It would have been tens of thousands in rewards PER POST had it not been LR. whats happening now might be subjectively unfair but had it been quadratic rewards even i will say its objectively unfair.

In the end of the day it boils down to human nature. No amount of engineering and maths can solve away human nature. which historically had been the one thing that ruins everything for everyone.

Steem is ultimately still an experiment and it will continue to change and improve. Im not saying "get it while the going's good" but im pretty sure this whole thing might simmer down in the future as things balance out. I dont know what you think about him but i think @yallapapi hit it in the nail with whats happening with the whole drama

In the end of the day it boils down to human nature. No amount of engineering and maths can solve away human nature.

You know much more than I regarding rewards algorithms I'm guessing, but it's the point above that is just as important.

Thanks for stopping by!

actually i dont know too much of the technicals as well. Although we dont need technical prowess to recognize that alot of problems on the platform we see are human factors that will never be stamped out unless things goes fascist. Even so i rather be a part of a decentralized social/content platform than one controlled by a single entity. For that, i have nothing to complain about.

I disagree entirely, and remember before hf20. No bidbots. High quality posts. Very little self-upvoting.
Then it happened. I saw people rejoicing that their upvote had jumped from x to y, and they could finally support their friends.
Now, all I hear is how unfair it is that everyone only supports their friends.
I discussed this in detail - here
TLDR; quadratic rewards means the bigger a live payout, the more influence you have over it's movement, up OR down.
Your current, 50c vote would be worth 5c if you're upvoting a mate's low quality post, or $5 if you're downvoting some bidbotty spam at the top of the trending page, which is what people did; so much so, that people didn't even try voting crap up into Trending (they knew it'd be dragged straight back down by people who saw it as rubbish, and wanted to return those rewards to the pool)
Now, everyone knows their vote is worth 50c, and they take the rational approach.
Instead of downvoting rubbish, they just upvote themselves or their friends.

I hope you agree with me that quality is subjective, otherwise it's hard to continue our discussion.

We had other problems before HF19 too. Unbudging trending page, minnows making next to nothing unless whalevote.

of all my time prior to HF19, i never seen the possibility of a minnow gaining the limelight despite making Youtuber quality content. Minnow's only shot at making was either rubbing a whale belly or getting noticed by Curie.

It'll never be perfect i think. people will always complain no matter what and however steem is designed, there will always be ways to game it. Even so i'm steadfast in saying HF19 brings greater good than evil.

Yes, quality is subjective.
With SMTs on the way, and Dan building a competitor on EOS, not to mention any forks of either, I'm sure we'll get plenty of opportunity to see all sorts of different settings play out in reality.
For example, Ned appears to be making account level voting an option for SMT's and/or quadratic rewards.
Those who lean toward fairness (whatever that is) can launch an SMT with account voting and linear rewards, and those who lean toward quality can have stake weighted voting and quadratic rewards.
Then we can race our preferences against each other and you'll get to see how right I am ;p

Yep, the proof has certainly been in the pudding.

We don't all have to be dicks though eh? :)

hahahaha nicely said!

Wow! So well written! Thank for for this article. I couldn’t agree more. They way the system is set up, it encourages quantity of content over quality and lots of self voting. I hope it changes, as I miss reading awesome articles.

Really enjoyed the read. Awesome content 😆🤣

Thanks Karen!

Yes this is the system, but we don't have to follow it though right? :)

Glad to see you and TS having fun at the Saturday/Sunday markets - get him a can of red-bull and some FOOOOD before you start filming next time huh? :D :D

If steem rises in value people would earn more SBD's on each post. I think people focus too much on haejin and not enough on the problem of steem's low value.

It is all well and good to try to discourage this abusive behavior. However, if the Steem rewards system incentivizes this activity and gives no option for recourse then we have 3 options:

  1. Change the reward system
  2. Flag the content
  3. Ignore it

I have chosen option 3. I cannot change the protocol myself so option 1 won't do. I have tried flagging content but I am only taking pennies off $100. Instead, I make an effort to find and follow better quality accounts so I can spent my upvotes on promoting them. I think if enough of us start supporting each other we can start to eat into the reward take of the reward abusers. We can build a bigger building without tearing theirs down but we can only do it together.

I think that's the right approach for a minnow. 1 is for the Witnesses and Whales, and seeing some of those have opted for option 4 (my post content), I think just carry on as you are, bringing the light to those that deserve it.

Cheers!

I like the idea of my 2 penny upvotes being considered "bringing the light". Very poetic!

The next best thing to do. Thanks.

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