Why I have removed my witness vote for @ura-soul, and stand against @jerrybanfield ‘s budget proposal.

in #steem6 years ago (edited)

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How are hard forks made?


The Steem Blockchain has an innovative Witness-based system that allows improvements to be made to the protocol more rapidly than other blockchain protocols. All that is necessary for a Steem hardfork is for the top 20 witnesses, who are chosen by the users, to adopt the changes based on their assessment that the code is bug-free and does not pose a threat to the security of the blockchain.
Unlike a softfork, a hardfork is not backward-compatible: unupdated nodes will not recognise the new blocks as valid.

Source: https://www.steem.center/index.php?title=Hard_Fork

Some brief background.


First, let me say that I am not against the idea of a budget proposal, or changes to the platform in the interest of creating a more thriving and robust creative community here at Steemit.com.

After all, this is a social media site that was launched in view of being open-source and community generated, maintained, and governed. That said, it is also a stake-weighted voting platform, and this aspect of Steemit seems to be disturbing on some level or another to many users.

Over the course of my 1 and a 1/2 years on the platform, I have heard—at various times and to various degree—complaints that the “game is rigged” and that this or that user, this or that article, or this or that project, deserves more Steem, more support, more views, more attention...basically just more...than someone or something else.

The whales run the whole thing. It’s a scam.

”We” need to distribute the rewards more evenly for minnows.

(entity A, B, or C) was paid too much! I worked my ass off and didn’t get anything!


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Why I will not vote for @ura-soul as witness, and stand against the recent budget proposal submitted by @jerrybanfield.


I have no personal issue with either of these individuals, per se, but feel that the attitudes and philosophies they are attempting to introduce to the leadership of the platform—whether intentional or otherwise—are extremely dangerous.

It is important to note that there is absolutely nothing illegitimate about the act of making a proposal for a hard fork (which would be needed to cut the witness rewards in half for the top 20 witnesses, inflate Steem, and cut SP interest as per @jerrybanfield ‘s plan).

Steemians could adopt the new chain if they wanted. Anyone can theoretically make a fork. I am saying it shouldn’t happen because in my view the proposal is half-baked, overzealous, and self-centered. Ultimately, what I am saying is, the attitude behind the “necessity” of such a fork is one that would likely drive Steem and Steemit into the ground if adopted en masse. That attitude is one of entitlement and a misunderstanding of basic economics and property.


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Nobody “owes” anyone anything.

One may have the greatest idea in the world. It doesn’t mean that one is then automatically owed funding by others for development of said idea. To be fair, neither @ura-soul nor @jerrybanfield explicitly state this (though @ura-soul has come close in our conversations), but the element in Jerry’s proposal that suggests a large pay cut for the 20 top witnesses to fund his new idea is interesting. He says “we” an awful lot in his proposal, but I think that simply saying X and X “should happen according to me, so we need a fork,” instead of actively creating the app or project on top of the existing chain is a red flag. As @andrarchy has suggested several times in the @jerrybanfield proposal comment thread the ideas being put forth could be fully accomplished via the existing chain without cutting funding to much needed witness, and attempting to force a fork on those who do not want one. Why is the first recourse to attempt to cut back the funding of others? Why not cut back your own, first, and ask others to join you voluntarily?


As @andrarchy states in the comment thread:

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I quote @jerrybanfield regarding the proposal:

To make the 200,000 Steem available, we can remove Steem power interest and reduce top 20 witness rewards by 50% or increase inflation by the same amount.

So “we” can take away interest from others who may be using it to benefit their own projects being developed to enhance the Steem experience, cut pay in half for the people putting in the most work maintaining the chain, or systemically destroy the currency by inflating it?

These do not sound like revolutionary or great ideas to me. This sounds like pie-in-the-sky dreaming after too many cups of coffee. Why undercut basic economic principle and punish others for their productivity and work in reaching their positions/developing their projects/add-ons? Why seek to make Steem more like the failing USD by inflating it?

I quote @ura-soul:

The current situation is that developers, for example, are expected to dedicate significant amounts of their lives to creating solutions for Steem with no guarantee of remuneration for their efforts

Well, first, yes. If one has brought nothing to market, why is one entitled to remuneration? Entrepreneurs would laugh at this notion.

If we want to help and incentivize developers by making a Steem pool for them, that’s great, I’m all for that. But why are hard fork and pay cuts needed for this? Build your own initiative and raise the money! As I mentioned before, if the majority of witnesses agree with Banfield and @ura-soul, this can go through. I am simply saying, for the sake of Steem, I hope it doesn’t.

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Just say NO to drugs! Like this one,
that makes individuals hallucinate that effort and even intent can be measured. Doesn’t this sound a lot like the labor theory of value?

Again, quoting @ura-soul:

'Proof of Stake' is not just 'proof of wallet' - it is proof of intent, effort, time and value.

Really? Proof of intent???? Proof of...effort??? Who is the arbiter of such things!?

It would be fatal to any economics-based platform to base the whole foundational model on non-mathematical ideas such as these. Where in the Steem whitepaper is proof of stake defined as “proof of intent”? This is absurd. Proof of stake is speaking of vests and monetary stake in the platform. @ura-soul may be a very spiritual name, but when it comes to econ, if you forget ura body, then u r dead.

More critical problems with the proposal (quotes are from @jerrybanfield in the proposal post linked above):

  • No dissent:

No downvoting would be allowed on proposals to ensure those with the most positive support win regardless of who disagrees just as is the case in the witness voting system.

Voting for witnesses is categorically different than voting for platform/blockchain-wide changes, and to disable dissent would be a fatal error, as it is dissent which often helps organizations of individuals avert catastrophe and errors brought on by simple oversight or outright malicious planning by rogue actors.

Every Steemian must now keep up on every proposal, otherwise the lack of action is viewed as consent, and an action in the negative (dissent) is not even permitted.

  • Abitrary cuts in rewards:

At steemit.com/budget every 28 days about 200,000 Steem generated from what we were getting in interest and witness rewards will be available for payouts to the proposals.

No, Jerry, not what we were getting when it comes to witnesses. As you are not in the top 20, you would be taking no witness pay cuts, right?

  • Based largely on “what if”:

One day a flip will happen and Bitcoin will go the way of all the apps and websites we have stopped using because we no longer needed them. In ten years as Steem overtakes all of the other top websites in the world, maybe we will build a garden of Eden where we live and give up needing to go online to feel like we are connected.

Maybe. I hope so. But this proves nothing about the efficacy of idea behind the proposal.

  • Abolition of interest on Steem Power which incentivizes long-term investment:

When we look more closely at this objection, we see that there is no point in paying interest on Steem power because if Steem has value, interest becomes irrelevant as the price increases. If Steem does not have value interest is also irrelevant because the interest will not cover the losses.

How do you know the interest I make is not relevant to me? Are you kidding?

Steem is not, and should not try to be, a competitor to your local bank’s certificate of deposit.

Why not?

  • Based on broad, baseless assumptions:

We pay most of our new Steem back to those that already have the most in the form of interest to Steem power holders, witness rewards, and payouts to mostly top authors to help encourage ongoing participation out of fear that if we stop, they will leave us.

Yes, Jerry, this is a stake-weighted voting platform and folks have worked very hard and paid a lot to be where they are. And no, the reason I vote for who I do is not fear they will leave, but because I like their content and want to support them and incentivize them to keep creating. It may seem a subtle difference, but it’s a critical one. That’s kind of the whole idea of this platform. Incentivize content creators.

On top of that, we prove by adding budget proposals that WE TRUST the top witnesses and WE TRUST top Steem power holders to continue making valuable contributions and holding Steem with less rewards in the short term in exchange for much more value in the long term because of a higher Steem price.

Prove it. Prove that disincentivizing these individuals will help the the platform grow. Not with feel good fluff about Dash, but with actual economic principle.

I’ll close with this. An extremely telling admission by @ura-soul:

“In a pure sense, it is impossible to 'own property' without violating someone...”

Is this the type of economic nonsense we want present in the governing leadership of Steem? The idea that property is violence? This is Communism, and I am not being hyperbolic. I find it funny how outwardly compassionate these ideas can sound, while when you pull back the top layer, underneath is often found little more than schemes that benefit a few, first and foremost.

I am not saying this is intentional, necessarily, but it is extremely dangerous, all the same. It’s a cancer that has the potential to eat this whole platform alive. Always beware of people pontificating on the “greater good,” in the absence of supporting the individual as the ultimate minority, and pinnacle/foundation of all legitimacy as regards consent, money, and property.

As @andrarchy said in the comments on Jerry’s post. All of this stuff can be built on top of the existing chain. Isn’t interesting that the first idea that comes to mind is not “We can do it,” but “someone else can fund it”?

One final thought from @smooth on the same comment thread that bears repeating:


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To summarize, the Steem blockchain is set up so anyone can change it. I AM NOT SAYING IT IS ILLEGITIMATE IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM, TO PROPOSE A CHANGE.

I am simply speaking out about the dangerous assumptions, outright economic fallacies, and philosophical leaps of logic slipped subtly into this new proposal. I stand firmly against it. I hope if I am wrong here I will be corrected and happy to find out that, indeed, @ura-soul and @jerrybanfield believe in free market principles, and the legitimacy of individual self-ownership and property.

~KafkA

!


Graham Smith is a Voluntaryist activist, creator, and peaceful parent residing in Niigata City, Japan. Graham runs the "Voluntary Japan" online initiative with a presence here on Steem, as well as Facebook and Twitter. (Hit me up so I can stop talking about myself in the third person!)

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Interesting post. Deserves a longer thoughts on what we shall support ( or not ) for better future. I hope I'll find more time for this during this comin weekend.

I suggest reading my comments here and the full thread to see how @kafkanarchy84 has edited my words for his own reasons and removed large parts that totally change what he is projecting I am saying here.

I have quoted you directly and linked to the thread so users can see the context.

Well said Graham. Communist dogma nearly destroyed the last century and I don't just mean in the East. How can owning a property be violent!?
It's that kind of thinking that will destroy this platform if it is allowed to seed. Just in the last few weeks I have noticed more and more new adopters arriving from the SJW camp, vigilance is needed.
Thanks for making a stand mate.

I'm with Percy. Collectivism is cancer and belongs on the scrapheap of history.
Good catch.

I suggest reading my comments here and the full thread to see how @kafkanarchy84 has edited my words for his own reasons and removed large parts that totally change what he is projecting I am saying here.

I suggest reading my comments here and the full thread to see how @kafkanarchy84 has edited my words for his own reasons and removed large parts that totally change what he is projecting I am saying here.

I invite anyone reading this to go ahead and read my full comments under Jerry's post - since they have been sliced and diced here to remove the explanations as to why I wrote what I wrote. I had the feeling all the way through my interactions with @kafkanarchy84 that he was deliberately avoiding the comments that highlighted the judgemental errors in his logic and just kept seeing pictures of communist flags in his inner vision.

I am not a communist, have never been a communist and am not for communism. I am closest to an anarchist/voluntarist.

I don't feel this piece is fair at all. I am not campaigning for this hardfork suggestion - I just happened to read Jerry's post (against my usual agenda of not reading his posts) and then thought it was a decent idea, that's all.

I have already explained in full what most of the logical misunderstandings are here, I think this post was written before I wrote my last reply.

In fact, I'm actually pretty pissed off that given that I have literally dedicated the last 10+ years to exposing corrupt government of all forms - that I am being tarred with a brush that completely denies almost everything I have written both in this platform and others. But hey, if you like not digging deeply and just putting people in boxes for your own reasons - then go right ahead. I can provide all the evidence of any kind needed to back up my statements and welcome any valid correction of them.

You jumped on to a totally unrelated comment thread of mine prior to all this and asked why I had removed my vote for you as a witness. I attempted to explain, and then while reading the @jerrybanfield piece I realized my clearly why I had. This is my explanation and answer to your query. It is not simply about you supporting @jerrybanfield and his proposal.

ok, understood - i only wrote the comment under your unrelated post because i am not aware of any specific way to contact you other than that, since steemit does not include private messaging. there is no guarantee that any particular user will also be a user of steemit chat and many people just ignore private messages there due to the high level of pm vote begging.

damnit man! you are literally chopping out parts of my sentences to make my words into something they are not! disgusting behavior!

You wrote that I wrote:

"In a pure sense, it is impossible to 'own property' without violating someone"

NO! I did NOT write JUST that and you KNOW IT.

What I ACTUALLY wrote was this:

In a pure sense, it is impossible to 'own property' without violating someone as long as you force others to be denied access to parts of the Earth - especially the parts they need. Right now Nestle are actively involved in attempting to make ALL water PRIVATE - meaning they are using their wealth to literally own the water of the planet in totality! The outcome of that is nothing but slavery - but according to their psychopathic agenda this is a 'good' thing for humans.

Is that TRUE or NOT?

Anyone wanting to know what I ACTUALLY think, instead of what is being falsely projected here for what ever reasons, can read the post I made to explain some background logic to another post I made about introducing decay of witness votes - which the CEO of steemit himself thanked me for.

♥ [Article] How Bringing Balance to Communities Through Heart Felt Principles of Compassionate Anarchy Inspired Me To Rethink Steemit's Witness Voting Process ♥

No, it is not true that to own property one must violate another human. By your definition my house could be construed as “denying others access.”

I didn’t feel like quoting the whole paragraph. The article is linked to for anyone to read.

I have no idea why you have a blind spot or inability to understand what i am actually saying here - but it appears you do. I put a condition on the statement regarding violating humans in regard to ownership that relates to denying access to parts they need. There is nothing within the system of ownership that prevents alleged ownership from including ownership of that which is needed for life to continue - that's the problem.
you are completely ignoring/denying the full depth of what i am saying - particularly the part about heartfelt connection being the balance needed to get all of this right. many ancient cultures understand what i am saying here - many current tribes say the same.

By your definition my home is a violation as it denies others access to that part of the earth.

reader note: I have spoken to this issue in a comment i just wrote in another sub thread on this page.

And I have answered on that other thread.

They are having outright economic fallacies. I find it scary I have been seeing people in the crypto world with a little money pointing the finger at the banks and government then turn around and do exactly what they just said was wrong and corrupt but somehow it's different cause they are not them? bs I tell ya.

I suggest reading my comments here and the full thread to see how @kafkanarchy84 has edited my words for his own reasons and removed large parts that totally change what he is projecting I am saying here.

@ura-soul I am not taking sides nor was my comment directed towards you. Just simply making a general statement.

Well said Graham. To me, it reeks the same as a politician saying 'We need to implement this tax, for your benefit.' Of course this tax doesn't negatively effect him, just others who he decides can afford it. All for the sake of the greater good though, right?

This is SO messed up. The suggestion is to lower payments to WITNESSES. Both Jerry and I are witnesses - so it's only US that would take the pay cut. How the hell this has been utterly reversed into the claim that we are trying to tax everyone but us - I have no idea. It's a lie.

I suggest reading my comments here and the full thread to see how @kafkanarchy84 has edited my words for his own reasons and removed large parts that totally change what he is projecting I am saying here.

I will definitely dig deeper and recant anything I may have misspoke about. But I thought I read that the top 20 witnesses would only be effected (50% I believe), and neither you or Jerry are in the top 20 (Jerry I see at 23 and I don't see you in the top 50, maybe I am missing something?). So can you clarify how your witness 'payments' would be effected?

Jerry was in the top 20 for a while and could easily get in there again. I am nowhere near the top 20, yes - to clarify what i am saying here, as a witness it is me who is LIKELY to take the pay cut IF I reach the top 20.. it's not something that affects 99.9% of steem users directly. So therefore, if i succeed as a witness - which i intend to - then I will receive the reduced payouts that are being suggested. If I myself am totally happy to continue being a witness a that reduced rate and so too are numerous other witnesses who have spoken out to support the change - then why exactly is this some kind of extortion racket that I am allegedly advocating?

I, like some other witnesses, understand that the benefits to steem of such a change are likely to be greater than keeping the system as it is. It has nothing at all to do with some kind of tax, it is simply an economic and business logic observation that makes senses for the entire system.

If you had read jerry's post, you would know that he states clearly that the idea of giving money for projects may actually mean that the top witnesses get MORE money than they do now since some of them run very popular projects. It's really just a situation of making steem's budget more productive and beneficial for every steemian. I might not gain a single cent from the change unless my project is one that people like - so unless you are inferring that I can somehow rig the vote, then the claim that my support for the idea suggests malicious intent on my part has no merit.

I never said your intentions were malicious.

the comment from @intothewild - infers a kind of greedy and inconsiderate maliciousness on my part. i would also say that your claims about my alleged intent to basically remove private property from everyone infer a maliciousness that amounts to theft.

As my tagline states "Good ideas don't require force". When I see someone (even if he was at one point) not in the top 20, calling for that bracket to give up/donate/tax, whatever you prefer to call it, half of their 'income', to fund his idea, regardless of the proposed benefits, it is immoral in my mind. Unless there is 100% consensus among all top 20 witnesses, I don't see it as being a voluntary interaction.

My issues are not personal, clearly, as I don't believe I have ever spoken to you or Jerry. As a voluntarist, which if I'm not mistaken you claim to be as well, surely you can see my initial distrust and skepticism of someone who claims to be noble and just, but first has to take a bunch of money from people to facilitate his ideas. Sounds a lot like government saying we need to rob you so we can protect you from robbers.

My original response was not to portray maliciousness on your part. I just saw the whole thing as simply misguided economical and philosophical beliefs that I used to once hold as well. Essentially, trying to help the community at the expense of others.

I want this place to be the best place in the world, like you, but I want to see it done with voluntary relationships. If this plan can achieve its goals that way, I'm all for it.

When I see someone (even if he was at one point) not in the top 20, calling for that bracket to give up/donate/tax, whatever you prefer to call it, half of their 'income', to fund his idea, regardless of the proposed benefits, it is immoral in my mind. Unless there is 100% consensus among all top 20 witnesses, I don't see it as being a voluntary interaction.

Their income is only their income because of the rules of the system which are themselves open to change. The rules are effectively decided by the witnesses themselves since they are changed via the hardfork process and the witnesses decide which hardforks get chosen. I think you have misunderstood the mechanics here. AFAIK, the current percentage allotted to the witnesses was defined by @dan and @ned during the project's conception - it is not a god given right.

no-one can force anything on the top 20 witnesses and effectively, it would only occur through their own voluntary acceptance of it.

it seems you are assuming that jerry, i or anyone else has powers that we do not have.

You guys are both not in the top 20, who would be taking the pay cuts according to the proposal, either.

Also, saying interest on SP would be/should be “irrelevant” to users and developers is hilarious.

Jerry was in the top 20 for a couple of weeks or so. I aim to be in the top 20 - I am operating the witness server at a loss, you would know this if you had been listening to what i am saying. I am obviously not going to be doing something at a loss and starting projects to help Steem if my intention is not to also be in the top 20 one day.

I did not say that interest on SP should be irrelevant to anyone - that was Jerry. I have already made clear elsewhere that Jerry's proposal is not perfect, I have never said that it should be adopted as it is. I personally don't even think interest needs to be effected by the solution.

Most witnesses response to jerry's idea was initially positive and the counter arguments lack substance - in fact many aren't even arguments. Some of your points are valid, but some of them are misrepresenting the situation.

Jerry was in the top 20 for a couple of weeks or so. I aim to be in the top 20

That's a fair point. I did not know that. Thank you for clarifying.

I did not say that interest on SP should be irrelevant to anyone - that was Jerry.

Right. I said that Jerry said that, not you.

That's a fair point. I did not know that. Thank you for clarifying.

no problem, you are welcome!

Right. I said that Jerry said that, not you.

you did not say that jerry said that in the sub-thread here and i read your comment here as if you were suggesting that I supported his idea regarding interest. nothing i have written on this topic is in support of the ideas about interest. as i have already said, i do not agree with everything in his proposal - it's a big proposal! i didn't for a moment, when reading the proposal, think that the community would just take his idea in totality and attempt to implement every aspect of it without discussion - that's just not how such things are done. a surprising number of people are demonstrating that they don't have much experience of implementing system changes among large numbers of stake holders and for their own reasons are just assuming that there is only one option - take what jerry says or dump it all. the reality is that such complex systems start with a rough concept and are then refined as more and more problems and challenges are highlighted and fixed. this is what i have been trained to do for any scale of problem and project - it is what i have done for nearly 20 years. it is true that i am not familiar with working on systems where there is such a vast number of eyes looking at the documents and writing, with such a diverse range of levels of experience of participating in such processes. I will certainly take that into consideration when commenting on such things in the future.

you did not say that jerry said that in the sub-thread here and i read your comment here as if you were suggesting that I supported his idea regarding interest

That's a fair point. And point taken. I appreciate you correcting my assumption here.

the reality is that such complex systems start with a rough concept and are then refined as more and more problems and challenges are highlighted and fixed.

I'm well aware of this.

The common thread I sense with both you and Jerry is a lack of a real concrete understanding of property, and that is mainly what I was getting at with this post. You had asked me why I removed my vote for you as witness, and that is why.

I learned more about Steem in this post that everything else. I stopped reading about halfway though. I don't know enough to put anything together after that. I must say there is a lot more below the surface.

Glad I am not alone my friend

Interesting read, I hope to understand this more and more as I keep trucking threw this, I do not know enough to validate my current complaints

I mean there has got to be a good reason why posts past 7 days stop generating money? I wish it was longer it takes a while for me to do my photoshoots and to edit them.

thats about the only thing that jumps at me as something I do not really like but like i said there is probaly a reason it is set up that way and I will just learn to deal with it.I would not want to but I already though aboout breaking up a normal length post and split it into 2 or three. Meh don't really wanna do that though

anyways thanks for the post . Keep up the good work . Have a nice day!!

Thanks man. Regarding the 7 day window, it used to only be 1 day. That's just how this site works and has been set up since the beginning. That is, with a payout window. I'm not an expert by any means, but I think that a longer window would likely put a huge strain on the rewards pool, and compromise the economics of the platform.

Anyhow, I am not exactly sure, but cheers, and thanks for the encouraging comment.

I think you are right I do remember how it would effect the Reward pool
I will keep that in mind when my brain starts crying about it hahaha thanks for the reply!!!

I suggest reading my comments here and the full thread to see how @kafkanarchy84 has edited my words for his own reasons and removed large parts that totally change what he is projecting I am saying here.

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i like your post, very useful

I reestemed this post. I feel it needs to be read by every member of the Steemit Community. I was not aware of what voting for someone as Witnesses would imply.

I see that there is a lot of Philosophy, Economics, Power and Control over who runs and lead direction on the future of steemit.com

I am going to blast this post to my Networks: About 50,000 targets.

Thanks Mr. @KafkaNarchy84 for rising conscience and awareness about this issues. I personally feel some people here are only driven by profit, but they manage very well to appear and behave as Robin Hood. Keep eyes open and watch them out and their real intentions.

I suggest reading my comments here and the full thread to see how @kafkanarchy84 has edited my words for his own reasons and removed large parts that totally change what he is projecting I am saying here.

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